My next guest Claudia worked in financial services for nearly a decade. Unfulfilled and miserable She decided to take some time off to work on an idea that had been niggling in the back of her head for a few years: The milkman re-imagined for beauty.
In her words:
This was the start of my journey to starting Circla, born out of frustration on the amount of single-use plastic packaging in my beauty routine. I raised pre-seed investment from Sustainable Ventures and in August last year quit my corporate job for good! The last year has been a rollercoaster, we have pivoted the business model twice due to Covid-19 and now finally about to roll out our new model across the whole of central London. I run the company by myself with help from friends and family.
Circla contributes to 6 of the UN Development Goals but our main focus is Number 12 - Sustainable consumption and production
We talked about:
Katherine Ann Byam 0:01
So welcome, Claudia. Welcome to our show.
Claudia Gwinnutt 0:48
Hi! So great to be here. Thank you so much for thinking about us. And asking me to come and join.
Katherine Ann Byam 0:54
Yeah, it's lovely to have you. And I'm really interested in Circla because it's a unique sort of business model. Especially in the sustainability space, I have not heard of a model quite like this. So why don't you tell our listeners about what Circla does and what it's about?
Claudia Gwinnutt 1:11
Yeah, sure. So I think the easiest way to understand what Circla exactly does is that we are the traditional milkman-like service, and most people might be too young to remember what that is. But I think most people have an idea. But instead of delivering milk, we deliver beauty products. So exactly like the milkman, you can order the products that you need online, we have a whole range of different brands and products, we deliver them directly to your doorstep, you use them, and when you're done, we pick up your empty packaging, and then we deal with all the kind of faff around cleaning it and refilling it and getting it ready for use. Then you got a kind of filled bottle ready to go. So yeah, that's us.
Katherine Ann Byam 1:53
And how do you separate this from your traditional recycling trash? Like, what are the rules?
Claudia Gwinnutt 2:00
Yeah, so I mean, the way that it works is that when we deliver your products, we deliver it in a Circla reusable bag, which we ask you to keep and you're obviously welcome to use it in the shops or anything else. On the day that we do the refill, for example, we get an alert that says, you might be running out of shampoo, and we message, “Do you need to top up?” “Do you need to refill?” Yep, we organise a delivery date. And while in this pandemic, or at the moment, most people are leaving it outside. And then we'll drop you a message to say when we're about 15 minutes away. Most people just leave it outside, we pick up that empty bag and drop off a new one.
Katherine Ann Byam 2:45
Well, and what sort of network, how far-reaching is your organisation at the moment? Because it sounds like a logistical challenge.
Claudia Gwinnutt 2:53
Yeah, so at the moment, we're focused on London. One, because you have such a high density of population. But it's definitely something that we're looking at at the moment is how do we grow beyond London. I mean, I think the answer lies in probably focusing on other kinds of metropolitan, high-density areas, and then looking at how you expand into more rural areas, you've also got kind of different shopping habits. Generally, the population in London is a lot younger, kind of much more used to delivery type services, and things like that. But you know, these are the same challenges that Uber and delivery face as well because they exactly work better in high-density areas. So I hope that we'll get to that challenge one day.
Katherine Ann Byam 3:42
That's great. And in terms of Uber and delivery, etc, I was thinking about them in terms of picking up those things for you as well. You know it’s like almost a reverse model for them. Is that something that is actually done anyway, I don't even know if that's done.
Claudia Gwinnutt 3:59
Yeah, it's not done anywhere. I mean, there are certain companies. I basically use a company every now and then, particularly during the lockdown. I treated myself to a monthly delivery of flowers. And there's this amazing company in the UK called Freddy's flowers. And they've actually arrived in a cardboard box. Actually, they're really really good with their packaging. It's most flowers we buy in the supermarket are filled with plastics. There's actually isn't and they've actually started because they've got such scale in London.
If you leave your empty box the week before or the month before outside, they actually take it back. So there's definitely a lot of thought going into it. Companies are becoming more thoughtful around “if we're delivering a lot of packaging, how do we take that back?” I get my cute little pet dog the food and it arrives every month. Because part of it's frozen and it has these ice cube packs. They ask you to collect some of that insulation. And then you can keep it and post it back to them. Whether they're reusing it or not is to be debated. But I think what's more interesting is that companies are starting to think about that because there's a demand from consumers.
Katherine Ann Byam 5:14
Now, that's really interesting. Can you tell us about your background before you started Circla? Because I think other people will want to know.
Claudia Gwinnutt 5:21
Yeah. I didn't come from the beauty industry. And I wasn't even a hardcore environmentalist. I actually worked in Finance, finished university, joined Barclays, worked there for about under 10 years. Quite scary to say it really shows my age. There was nothing necessarily wrong with what I was doing, I actually had a really great role. I've been given loads of great opportunities. It was just that inside of me, I was like, “this is not my purpose, I'm not feeling fulfilled, there must be something more.” And then that kind of started my search for it.
Katherine Ann Byam 6:02
Great. So I wanted to ask one more thing about your product. And that is really what's in it for the consumer, like, what's special about the product itself? Is there a price differential? Or is it just that feeling of being responsible?
Claudia Gwinnutt 6:18
I think the main part of it, I think, is the kind of feel-good element that you're not contributing to waste. But I think the other part of it is when you look at sustainability. For example, a lot of beauty brands and products of brands telling you lots of stuff. And for consumers, it ends up being a bit confusing, overwhelming, what to believe, what is good, what is bad, should I be buying this, or should I be buying that.
So, I think one thing that we should start to care is we make sure that the brands that you're actually buying have been kind of thoroughly vetted, you know, not just from their products are really great, and we love them, and they really work and feel gorgeous in your skin or in your hair. But actually, the company itself is also doing good, you know, because I think one thing that will make sense for me is, okay, I'm solving this packaging problem. But then I'm working with a company that, you know, doesn't pay a fair wage, or has no idea about their supply chain. So it's much more holistic than just the packaging.
I think that's one of the bits that we do some of the work for you. So you can rest assured when you're buying from Circla, you're also getting a really great product from a really amazing brand, who's committed to doing cool stuff. The other part of it is, we try to reward positive behaviour. So there are other kinds of refill companies that have come out which have put big deposits on you being able to use the packaging. And for me, whilst that might make sense from a business perspective, and commercially,
I just felt like it’s a hindrance to the customers. I really believe that making things mainstream sustainability-wise is like, it needs to be the same as it is today, but better for the planet. And therefore we reward positive behaviours. For every bottle you return, we give you points which you can use as a discount. So the more you refill, the cheaper it gets. And that's my ethos. I mean, it may be we have to, we might have to change it in the future, but I hope not. Because I think that's kind of the core of what Circla is about. And I think that's why customers choose us.
Katherine Ann Byam 8:30
So you've kind of gamified the process as well.
Claudia Gwinnutt 8:33
I mean, we've got some exciting things and plans. One thing I would love to have is that the minute someone buys a product, they can see the direct impact of buying that product, and also their kind of collective impact. The more that they use Circla, they can be like, “oh, I've saved this much in waste,” or “this much in CO2 and emissions and etc.” That's our kind of roadmap for this year. And then you can also do it collectively. As a brand, we've done this. But yeah, I think there are a lot of people actually wanting to see in actual numbers that they can believe in the good that they're doing.
Katherine Ann Byam 9:10
Now, that's super important, I think. So the last question is going to be around the challenges of getting a sustainable business off the ground. Tell us about that journey, and what you've encountered, and how you've gotten over it.
Claudia Gwinnutt 9:25
Our journey has been a little bit crazy, because actually, before we had this model, our model was focused on hotels, and a B2B model for refills. think all those hotel amenity products, enormous amounts of waste. And in April of last year, we were due to roll out three commercial pilots with hotels to test this business model. Obviously, COVID happened and that rollout didn’t happen. And I guess the year 2020 pivoted into this new model. But I think, more about your question around the challenges of having a sustainability brand, is to have a bit more patience, because things are sometimes harder to do. And you can't just go in, you need to do a bit more research into what or who you're supplying things with? And how does it really work? And is it truly sustainable? I think the second biggest challenge is that you know, you've got to be really realistic to your customers. Most people who start sustainability brands are so passionate about the environment, and they immediately think everyone else is as well. And we all want that. And I do believe that everyone has good intentions, but you have to be realistic too - like the busy mom, who has got no time to go to refill shop or the times that you're out with friends having a coffee, and you have forgotten. You have to remember that that's not that how we might want people to live their lives is not how they are living their lives. And I think that's, you know, a really interesting challenge for sustainable brands.
Katherine Ann Byam 11:10
I think one of the biggest challenges I found, at least in actually working with the group where I met you and looking at sustainability in general, were a lot of small players trying to grow an idea. It's the same idea, but in small little pockets everywhere. And I guess my question is around how can we make this more sustainable for ourselves? You know, I think even before we got live on this call, we talked about this, this idea of being this entrepreneur who's doing everything, and maybe one of the questions I have as well is around things like franchising, like, how can we scale this? What are your thoughts on that?
Claudia Gwinnutt 11:49
Yeah, It’s really interesting, I completely agree with you, I think there are two things. The reason why sometimes they stay in small businesses is that consumers tend to not trust really big brands saying they're doing sustainability. But on the other hand, is that all those small guys keep themselves so authentic, it means that it's quite difficult to grow because it can be really, really expensive. And also sometimes when you see eco brands becoming corporate and big, all of a sudden, the loyal customer base actually starts attacking them.
I think that was kind of the case of Oatly, for example - the oat milk brand. They took money from a massive VC firm, I think in the US, and they got obliterated online for it. Those are the bigger kind of challenges I think you face. For us at Circla, I think one of my biggest focuses for this year is a collaboration with other brands and tapping into each other's communities. Because, I think not to see each other as competition, but to see us like actually, we're all working towards a greater goal. So I'm desperate to work with meal companies that are maybe serving healthy local, vegan food, or organic food delivery companies, or anything like all these different sustainability-type products that exist. How can we actually come together and find a way to promote each other, whether it's your delivery of operations, or logistics, you know, marketing each other? Because that's how I think we become really scary and competitive to some of these big brands when we start working together.
Katherine Ann Byam 13:37
Yeah. I like this idea. Finally, any advice for other sustainable brands like yours.
Claudia Gwinnutt 13:45
My biggest advice is, you're gonna hear “No” so many times, and there's going to be people who don't believe in what you're doing. They're going to give you a million reasons why it won't work. And it comes in a day for people who run a company, they want you to accept that it's just not gonna work. But I think if you've got a really great idea, and you're finding a way to test that, and you really believe in it, you've got to have just a really hard skin and believe in yourself and be able to pick yourself up. Because there's gonna be great days when you get invited onto a cool podcast, and then you're gonna have days where no one buys your product the next day, and no one is interested, and everyone's telling you that it's not going to work. And finding a way to get that kind of thick skin to keep going and believing in yourself, and being patient with the process I think is my biggest piece of advice.
Katherine Ann Byam 14:40
Wonderful! How can people find out more about you especially I know that you are based in London now but how can they find out one about how to buy your products but also about how they can work with you and support you?
Claudia Gwinnutt 14:52
Yeah, definitely please visit our website. It's www.circla.co.uk . You can also find us on Instagram, we're at @circular_., I'd love to hear from anyone who'd like to collaborate. You know my emails, claudia@circla.co.uk. Find me on LinkedIn. I’d love to speak to you and also really happy for anyone who is based in London if you'd like to try Circla and you can get 20% off with CIRCLA20 at checkout. So please come and try us.
Katherine Ann Byam 15:26
Wonderful. Thanks for joining us, Claudia.
Claudia Gwinnutt
Thank you so much.