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Keeping families healthy is an ongoing effort and a passion for Rayne Guest, an innovative and forward-thinking female entrepreneur and the founder and CEO of ArrowClean.  While living in Los Angeles, Rayne was inspired to launch her career in the green industry, developing customised recycling programs for hotels and other commercial properties.  Vowing to change the game, Rayne created a successful company that manufactures an EPA-regulated device that attaches directly to a facility's water supply to produce a hypoallergenic disinfectant proven effective in killing COVID-19.

ArrowClean is a state-of-the-art on-site disinfecting and cleaning solution that is safe for humans, animals, and the environment. ArrowClean is used in schools and industries that understand that toxic disinfectants poison their workers, clients, and the environment.

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About This Episode

Deenah is the Owner and Creative Copywriter at Words to Live By: A Copywriting Studio focused on serving values and passion-driven brands and entrepreneurs. 

Specialising in Brand Messaging, SEO Website Copy, and Email Marketing, Words to Live By is committed to writing copy that is backed by psychology and poetically executed.

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Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:00
What's it like being a neurodivergent business owner, the pros and the cons?

Deenah Jacques 0:05
I like to say that I'm empathetic not only as like a value, but as a person. And you know, that's why I pursued social work. But I also have this higher level of sensitivity because I don't want people to go through the experiences that I went through and struggling with navigating the system. And a con is that a lot of things still aren't made for me and it's frustrating that I still have to jump through hoops to find something and that things aren't as accessible to me and to other people who I could be serving. Of course, there's definitely going to be other business owners, other entrepreneurs and brand leaders who have different abilities, and you know, how are they going to navigate these things, it definitely pushes me to leave things better than when I found it.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:57
This is Season Five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because, we or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet, if we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views but never at either extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy Season Five of Where Ideas Launch; The Sustainable Innovation Podcast. Deenah is the owner and creative copywriter at Words To Live By, a copywriting studio focused on serving values and Passion Driven brands and entrepreneurs specialising in brand messaging, SEO website copy and email marketing, Words To Live By is committed to writing copy that is backed by psychology and poetically executed. Deenah, welcome to Where Ideas Launch.

Deenah Jacques 2:25
Thank you for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:26
It's really a pleasure to have you. And I want to get in a little bit to your background and understand how you got here to being in copy and becoming an SEO specialist, in fact?

Deenah Jacques 2:36
I took creative writing and I also majored in social work. So I branched off into the social work world, I worked in social services with children. And in the middle of the pandemic, I figured I should do something more creative and writing focused again, and I Googled, you know, side jobs where I can write and writing jobs I can make a livable wage. And I found out about copywriting. And at first, I wasn't sure about copywriting because I always imagined like corporations and working with an agency. But I was seeing, you know, copywriters who are working with smaller or mid sized businesses, and they had more like intimate connections with these entrepreneurs. And that's what I decided I wanted to focus on. I'm really love working with community driven businesses and local business owners and smaller businesses.

Katherine Ann Byam 3:30
Let's go now into freelancing and why you decided to pivot to, to freelancing with your business and why for purpose brands, why choose those categories of brands?

Deenah Jacques 3:43
I wanted to pursue freelancing because I figured I would travel once COVID was over. But of course, COVID lasted, you know, the pandemic lasted, you know, two ish years, but I figured, would give me more independence, I wouldn't be tied down in red tape and bureaucracy that I was trying to get away from. And my background is in social work. So I figured I you know, I've always been passionate about activism. And like these grassroots organisations, so I figured working with purpose driven organisations would be the way to go or purpose driven brands, because I would still have that social justice aspect of working with companies that are actually making a difference in the world, and they're giving back to their communities.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:36
Yeah, I like that, and I want to tap into something now, because before we got on to pressing record, we spoke about your origins and my origins, and we're both from the Caribbean. You're from Haiti, and I'm from Trinidad and Tobago, and I wanted to talk about this because in my experiences in the last four years in particular when I made my own pivot to sustainable business, to purpose driven business, I found that it's quite a challenge to meet other people like me in this space. And I got to talking to a few people about it. And one of the reasons that came up was that many people think that sustainability on the whole is a bit of a white privilege conversation. And I just wanted to know what your reflections are on hearing something like that. And what are your thoughts?

Deenah Jacques 5:25
Yeah, I mean, I understand why people might think it might be something that maybe like the upper echelons of society might, you know, be able to be more sustainable because of companies like Whole Foods, which are tend to be expensive and organic, but that's not actually true, especially coming from an immigrant family, we repurpose and reuse everything, like my grandmother would always see like yoghurt containers and use it to store stuff. And in Haiti, people don't really have the means for a lot of things. They don't have, you know, the electricity, electrical sources that we have. So they, they find a way to make things work, and that's carried over to America, you know, my parents would always save food for longer than they should have. But they, you know, were very adamant that they weren't gonna throw anything away. Like that's kind of dripped into my ethos, like, I don't want to waste anything. I want to use every little bit of everything, I reused different things that other people might think is like funky, but I'm like, well, you know, it has a purpose, you know, why not use it? So I think that's definitely something that maybe people if you, if you didn't grew up in a family of immigrants, first generation, second generation, you know, you wouldn't really see that. But looking back, I'm like, you know, we were pretty sustainable.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:56
I know exactly what you mean. So for example, my mum, she's exactly the same, like she won't throw a single thing away. And the minute I start throwing things away, she gets upset with me, like, she gets absolutely annoyed, I was going to use that. And I grew up with that. And I definitely, I think in my early 20s, I definitely kind of rebelled. So I know that I spent way more money than I needed to spend, they bought a whole lot of stuff that ended up going to charity. But there was never an idea of throwing anything away. If I was doing something like like giving it away, it had to go to charity, it had to be repurposed, it had to find another home. And that's always been in my culture. So you're absolutely right in that way. And I totally share that. And then the other aspect of it, you know, sort of growing up outside of, let's call it the Big West, the rich West is there, this whole idea of community was so important. So it's never just you like, like, right now, I don't know, my neighbours, like, I wouldn't share my food with my neighbours, for example, if I had leftovers, and I think I wouldn't get to eating it, even if I know my neighbour comes home late or whatever, like, it's just not done. Whereas, you know, in Trinidad, it's all about the community, it's all about the network around you. And you would, you would share everything right, if you have fruits in your garden, you would pick them, you would have a big harvest, and you'd go share it on, with everyone on the street, right? And that kind of culture is not something that I've been able to recreate in the UK, for sure, so it's something that I miss.

Deenah Jacques 8:21
Yeah, definitely. That's another good point. Because I was actually talking about this with a friend how, you know, I'm coming from more of like a communal background where extended cousins and my grandparents, you know, we all lived together, we all shared everything, there's hand me downs. And once those hand me downs were done, we would again, you know, like you said, donate it to charity, or to the church. And yeah, I feel like once we kind of moved away from that, once we, you know, my cousin's moved farther and farther away, you know, I kind of expected that to be like everyone, you know, I remember my friends saying she saw her cousin at the movie this, the other day, but she didn't say hi to her. And I was like, shocked, like, that's her cousin, like, what do you, you know, how come you, you know, weren't happy to see her. And that was really odd to me that people in the West are kind of more distant. And you know, we're focused on independence and individualism. But I think that kind of, that has, you know, its pros and cons. And unfortunately, I think I've seen more of the cons now.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:27
I completely, completely hear you. So we're going to change tacks again. And now I'm going to go into more around your field and to explore that a bit. So how we compete as ethical businesses is an ongoing challenge. And we have to come up with really great persuasive ways of communicating what's important about a purpose and about the social justice or climate justice or other form of justice that we want to see come to fruition in the world but at the same time, we don't want to come across like some of the other brands. Because there's loads of ethical considerations. There's greenwashing, there's all of this stuff that we need to consider. What are your thoughts on how your field of copy and SEO and all of these things are currently helping or harming small businesses?

Deenah Jacques 10:17
In marketing in general, I've seen more of like this conscious and slower way of marketing and intentional way of speaking to people and how that has branched down into more ethical marketing tactics, instead of using a false sense of scarcity or urgency or, you know, being more accessible in payment plans. That's kind of what I've noticed. But I've also, when working with brand designers, and web designers, I think there's more of a challenge. And maybe you're working with packaging distributors, and it's more expensive, or it's harder to find packaging that's eco friendly. I think it's opened up demand for more eco conscious products, people are being conscious about energy and using green energy. But I also think it could be a con because I can see this being like a trend and people not necessarily caring about sustainability. But they want to, I guess, you know, like greenwashing, essentially just saying it so that people are attracted to their, their brands. And so I think it's important to talk about the intentionality behind why you're doing what you're doing. And that's what I mean, well, you know, working with purpose driven brands, there's a purpose in, behind everything, and they're not doing things just for show they're doing it because they really believe in that that's a value of theirs.

Katherine Ann Byam 11:45
Yeah, absolutely. Tell us a little bit about successes that you've had so far. And also what surprised you about your journey and your pivot into this space.

Deenah Jacques 11:54
I guess, just you know, it's finally seeing, like my work, especially in marketing come in to fruition because I had the struggle with social media marketing, and, you know, Facebook groups, and there's, you know, part of me knew I knew had to do it, but I just was so stuck in how to do it. And I was exhausted burning myself out doing it in a way that was not beneficial for me, but you know, finally able to find a method or rhythm that works for me, and seeing you know, people respond to that, that what you say, finding my own, I guess, kind of system, what surprised me - that I would continue to be learning. When I first started out in the business realm, I was really adamant that I wasn't going to pay for a course I was just going to read books and consume as much free content as I can, which is great, but free content does have a limit. And I am someone who likes to ask questions. I'm like slightly neurodivergent. So I kind of need people to hold me accountable and to kind of support me as well. So you know, I invested in classes, and I do love learning. I'm a lifelong learner, but I was just really adamant, I guess that I wouldn't, you know, be paying for courses, I didn't really have the best school experience. So that was something I didn't want to do. But all of those courses that I've taken have shaped me and made me a better copywriter and have helped me sharpen my skills. It's given me a community and a network of people that I can turn to. And I feel like I've gotten where I am faster compared to other people. I've seen other people who maybe took that didactic route, and they're starting to do things that I had already been doing them like, wow, you know, I'm, you know, I'm not so far behind. So.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:48
Yeah, I love this. And I want to tap into it, if you don't mind. What's it like being a neurodivergent business owner, the pros and the cons?

Deenah Jacques 13:56
I like to say that I'm, you know, empathetic, not only as like a value, but as a person. And you know, that's why I pursued social work. But I also have this higher level of sensitivity because I don't want people to go through the experiences that I went through and struggling with navigating the system. So I would say that's definitely a pro. And a con is that a lot of things still aren't made for me. And it's frustrating that I still have to jump through hoops to find something and that things aren't as accessible to me and to other people who I could be serving who, you know, people don't have to disclose if they're neurodivergent or whatnot, but of course, there's definitely going to be other business owners, other entrepreneurs and brand leaders who have different abilities and stuff and you know, how are they going to navigate these things? It definitely pushes me to make you know, my mark and to leave things better than when I found it.

Katherine Ann Byam 15:01
That's so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. And I want to reflect on something. So I think I'm a bit older than you, like, like maybe by a lot. But when I was growing up, we didn't have conversations about neurodivergent. And today, like, now I reflect on, on my childhood and stuff. And I can see, like all of my friends who were probably neurodivergent, and I didn't understand it, or even myself, like, I can see where I was, potentially, I'm potentially touched with it as well. And I can see in my partner and, you know, I can see these things now, but we didn't have this knowledge, we didn't have this understanding. And instead of helping to help you evolve, you just learned that you just had to do it the mainstream way, right, like, you know, from getting a job to studying to, you know, getting anything done. And today, like, I'm so pleased that there's so much more open conversation about this stuff, first of all, and that it's now okay to actually say; hey, hang on, you know, like, I need things in a different way. Whether it be in a work situation, if you're, even when you're freelancing, like I can imagine, if you're working for non-neurodivergents, they may not understand the flexibility that you need to deliver on your job, and stuff like this, right. But now, it's a lot easier to have those conversations. There's still a group of people who don't understand it. But slowly and surely, it's becoming more commonplace. And I really appreciate that we can we can tap into these things.

Deenah Jacques 15:01
Yeah, definitely. I think that continuing to have conversations like this definitely helped. But I think if you aren't, you know, neurodivergent, you still don't see like, the gaps may be in your marketing or in your business that could potentially confuse people. So I think it's definitely good that people are becoming more aware and speaking up about it.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:48
Yeah, that's a challenge as well, because even for the neurodivergent, we're going to miss things. Because we understand things in a certain way, as well, like, oh my God, me and my partner, we have these debates all the time. So I'm a bit ADHD and I will go faster. So I will speak like way ahead of my mind in some ways, and sometimes I miss things in the conversation, and he will be left at the point where the gap was, and he wouldn't have understood anything I said after that, you know, whereas for him is like, he just needs details, details, details. And it's like we're kind of on the opposite spectrums. And it's really difficult for us to meet in one common place, you know, and, and I think that this is, it's such an important thing, as you say, conversation is how we get to the point of getting everyone in the spectrum as opposed to one end or the other end. And, and it's definitely a challenge. So I want to move now two challenges and obstacles. And you know, we've kind of spoken about this a little bit. But tell me a little bit about how you've worked through some of the challenges you faced?

Deenah Jacques 17:52
Yeah, I would say challenges I faced, maybe were more internal and a lot of self doubt. And I tend to overthink and that kind of lead to over analysis paralysis, I found out that's like an actual word. And that's definitely what I would say was happening to me where I just didn't really do anything, because I was so confused and stuck on what to do. And it took me a while to come out of that and to finally realise that I don't have to be perfect. And if I mess up people, they either won't notice or if they do notice they'll forget about it. So I would say that's definitely been like my biggest challenge in starting my business.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:34
And I want to move now to goals and Words To Live By, it's a great name by the way, tell me about your big hairy goals for what you want to do next.

Deenah Jacques 18:44
Well I definitely want to continue to have these conversations with people, especially with other entrepreneurs and with other peers so that they can understand how to be more inclusive of people of colour, people with different abilities, because there's a lot of things in the space that I see. And I'm like, oh, I don't think they meant to say that, I don't think they understand like the repercussions of their words. So I definitely think having more of these conversations, I definitely want to do that and you know, continue to learn and to continue to get better at my craft I would say, I would love to have more I guess of these purpose driven brands coming to me and resonating with me and just hearing from more of them and how I can best serve them with copywriting or with other resources in my network.

Katherine Ann Byam 19:39
I want to get now some tips because we've talked a lot about many things and there's so much I don't even know where to start with the tips. But probably I'm gonna start with this can you give us some tips on writing to be more inclusive? First of all.

Deenah Jacques 19:54
I would say definitely think about yeah, the language that you're using, for example, I've seen in a lot of sales pages, people using this term action takers, if you're an action taker, you will be rewarded with, you know, $500 off the course. And to me, that doesn't seem fair for someone who has like, you know, a slow processing disorder speed, slow processing speed, or who's has debilitating anxiety to see that and you know, that's definitely going to be like a turnoff or like a red flag to them that you're essentially saying that they can't take action. You know, I would say, there's a lot of things I'm about to write a blog post on things that I have seen, you know, feel free to reach out to me if you feel like there is a word or something that you're not sure it would be right to use, or if it could be potentially inaccessible. But even you know, things like copywriting, for example, and design are big investments. It's not cheap. It's very expensive. And for good reason, of course, but I see this narrative of if you don't invest in yourself, how are other people going to invest in you, and that I'm not okay with that. Because that completely ignores the privilege that you have, and that other people don't have, especially if you're a person of colour, or if you're in a marginalised people group, people want to work on themselves, and they are, you know, building brands to, to get out of, you know, these stigmas and to have a better life for themselves. And to see that, you know, completely ignores the fact that there are systems in place that makes it harder for people to get, you know, a business loan, or that still kind of hard to get a grant or how do you even write a pitch deck? You know, those are things that you don't know, unless someone teaches you, and maybe someone hasn't taught you that? So just things like that. I'm always just very wary about and everyone's, you know, learning, I think so. This isn't to shame, you know, if you have used tactics like that before, now, you know, you know, maybe to be more cautious about that. And yeah, just to, you know, anything that has to do with learning or with, you know, privilege, I think, like you said, there are more conversations about that. So I know that more and more people will be talking about it, at least I like to think that we're all out here to help each other get better at how to market to people.

Katherine Ann Byam 22:31
And what about SEO optimization. And I want to just preface this because we we got into a lot of conversations today. And we didn't really talk about SEO. But I want to touch back on on why SEO because a lot of business owners have focused on building their business through their networks and through building communities and stuff like this. And the whole part about SEO is kind of popped because it sounds too hard. It requires so much content, how can we break down some myths bust some myths about SEO and like help people to embrace this in the design of what they're creating for their business?

Deenah Jacques 23:08
I would say like I was one of those people who was like, oh, SEO is definitely going to stifle my creativity. I don't want to, you know, learn about that. But the goal of SEO and you know, optimising your content is just to provide a better user experience for your people. So it's people driven first. And I think that kind of breaks down maybe those fears. It's all about, you know, serving your people and being accessible to more people so people can find you and the awesome things that you're doing. I think that SEO people get very caught up in trying to trick the system or trying to find shortcuts. And the one thing you just want to focus on is write content that people have questions about that people are asking you about that you know your people could benefit from. That's really the main important goal of SEO, and then all those other things, the optimisation, the keywords, the all those little nuances, all those little discrepancies, technical stuff. Those are second, Google prioritises content. That's why I've seen pages that have great content, but I can tell that it wasn't optimised but it's still on number one. So not to say that you can just write whatever you want willy nilly, but you could go that extra mile. You do want to make sure that you're not keyword stuffing, using the same keywords so that Google can pick up what your article is about because that essentially makes it harder for people to read. You know, it's making sure that your texts are broken up because it's easier for people to read texts that are bulleted and have highlights that are italicised, it's again, going back to accessibility and neurodivergence, it's better for people who have maybe a harder time reading those. I mean, I think everyone would have a hard time reading a big block of text. And you know, just making sure to use your keywords in a way that is just natural, making sure to have images that aren't too large, for example, so that it doesn't slow down the page speed. It's little things like that, that really can help.

Katherine Ann Byam 25:22
Thank you so much for your conversation today. And for sharing so much with us. I think I hadn't really understood as much about accessibility and SEO until today. And like you say, you know, we take the opportunity to learn wherever we can and whenever we can. So I appreciate you for that. And how can my listeners get connected with your work to learn more about neurodiversity and copy and to learn more about SEO? In fact.

Deenah Jacques 25:46
You can visit me on my website. It's www dot words to live by writing.com or on Instagram at Words To Live By writing.

Katherine Ann Byam 25:55
Thank you so much Deenah, it's been a pleasure to host you today.

Deenah Jacques 25:58
Thank you for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 26:02
This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new Women In Sustainable Business Awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion, or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation, you are more than welcome to join us, and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group, on Facebook; Woman In Sustainable Business, or follow the podcast; Where Ideas Launch, on Instagram to find out more.

About This Episode

I don’t know anyone (they may exist, but I don’t know them) who endured the last 3 years, without some significant pain alongside it. That said, we can’t always live in the pain, and as I advocate to my clients, gratitude goes a long way to healing and pulling the threads together again.

Those of you who know me, know that I juggle many things in my business life, at varying levels of success. 2022 has been a year that stretched me, and I intend for 2023 to be the year that I bring myself back together, consolidate, and grow the way I want to impact our planet.

For the last few weeks, I’ve been running a gratitude campaign on LinkedIn and on Facebook, and this is the opportunity for you my listeners to join the party. Here’s a summary of my 12 days of gratitude for 2022.

Episode Transcript

Day 1 of 12 - Growing my network with positive influences

There are amazing people doing fabulous purpose driven work all across my networks. From LinkedIn Influencers and micro influencers, to communities on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok I’ve been fortunate to fill my feeds with great positive and educational content from this rich variety of academics, scientists, practitioners, and entrepreneurs. 

My top 10 of a combined place to be and people to follow for 2023 (ignoring my podcast guests until a later section of this review) are as follows: 2 influencers, 2 podcasts (other than my own) 2 communities, 2 entrepreneurs, 2 businesses.

Influencers

Alison Taylor - Executive Director at Ethical Systems, Adjunct Professor at NYU Stern School of Business. Her quippy, witty, well informed real time commentary on ethics and ESG has been absolutely my go to guide for all things business and ethics this year - no wonder she’s writing a book for HBR on business ethics!

Akima Paul Lambert - Litigation Partner at Hogan Lovells - Equity and Inclusion Advocate| Founder- Hogan Lovells' Caribbean Desk. Akima’s Friday posts are so grounded, provocative in a good way and relevant, and she’s a clear example of how you can do a corporate job and manage an engaged and relevant LinkedIn following as well!

Podcasts

Sam Cande is keeping Sustainability & Social Responsibility at the heart of conversations with her podcast sustain talks. Sam not only shares great useful content on Linkedin, but she also hosts super conversations on her show. Listen in on Youtube, Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your supply of great content!

Archita Fritz and Olivia Grant-Cream are doing some really important work with Embracing "Only" Podcast - supporting “Only’s” in the workplace with survival strategies, and a sense of community. I can hardly think of a better source of great knowledge - Thank you for your work ladies!

Communities

The largest sustainability group on Facebook is run by my friend Austin Kasso. Sustainable Living with its 133,000 strong following is a great space to get tips and ideas about how to live more sustainably day to day. 

Women in Marketing by Stephanie Solheim. This is arguably the best run social community on the entire internet. Well done Stephanie! It’s a space for women who work in marketing, or entrepreneurs who do their own marketing to discuss their challenges, trouble shoot, vent, and maybe even get a few gigs. It's absolutely perfect. zero spam and exceedingly high engagement. Love this space!

Entrepreneurs/ Solopreneurs

I love to acknowledge entrepreneurs out there on their own, committed beyond question to their purpose. One such person is Cathy Mears - Martin - and her page Simply Sustainable Ideas. She’s an Author and Waste Activist - and always has something well researched and brilliant to share on waste control, and a special set of content to support your kids as well.

I also want to acknowledge a brilliant friend of mine: Neema Amin, Business Coach for  Investor Readiness and funding. For entrepreneurs out there looking for funding, you’ll want to have a conversation with Neema. 

Companies

Systemiq Ltd, The system change company that works for a thriving planet where sustainable economic systems drive prosperity for all. This may be the company who’s posts I’ve liked the most in 2022, you’ll want to follow them.

Patagonia - Founded by Yvon Chouinard in 1973, Patagonia is an outdoor apparel company based in Ventura, California. A certified B-Corporation, Patagonia’s mission is to save our home planet.

The company is recognized internationally for its commitment to authentic product quality and environmental activism, donating 1% of sales annually, contributing over $100 million in grants and in-kind donations since 1985.

The company made the news this year by its owner handing over his shares to the earth, using profits to support climate and sustainability related challenges. 

Day 2 of 12 Days of Gratitude: Publishing a book, 15 years after I first had the idea to write one.

I want to start with the toughest feedback I had on this journey, which resulted in me re-working the book and producing a best seller with a 4.8/5 rating from 18 reviews on Amazon:

"You have many people in you - but I feel like it has some very different personas it caters to, and not everyone has that level of integration. If I were you, I'd cut out about 40% of stuff, pick one angle, or one process, and flesh out one problem in great depth."

I am so incredibly grateful to everyone who has contributed to the success of  Do What Matters Careers - in 2022.

Special thanks to the book readiness team: Holly, Fanny, Harriet and Louisa who played their roles brilliantly. Vinitha, Shane and Heather, whose tough feedback made this book so much better. Ludwig Johanna, Carlos, Melissa, Kate and Archita whose early reviews got this book on the map, and finally Saleema, Amani, Frances, Owen, Mahalia, Fazeer and Emily who supported the marketing and PR Campaigns.

Thank you everyone!

Now for the best piece of feedback I received:

"This book is a revelation in so many ways that I cannot enumerate. Each chapter had me go to places I hadn’t considered going; to my experiences, my biases, my joys, and my gifts foremost among them! This book doesn’t just recommend what I should consider in my journey to building a net – positive life, it puts the steering wheel in my hand, with a road map and tangible actions to plot out what’s meaningful to me! I have lengthy notes. I highly recommend it"

Day 3 of 12 Days of Gratitude - Paying clients. 

Context is everything: This post is oriented from the perspective of being a business owner. In a later gratitude post, I’ll take the perspective of the customer’s challenges and or goals that we helped them to achieve.

No business thrives without customers, and If I’m being honest, that was the biggest challenge We’ve had since we started Dieple in 2019. 

Year 3, the financial year just ended in July has been our best so far, and the first time we could report a profit within 12 discrete months of trading. From consulting, coaching, course creation, speaking, book sales, we finally managed a profit, although we still couldn’t pay ourselves decently. 

This is the reality of building a start-up, in a country where neither of us have deep connections and networks. 

I simply want to say a huge thank you to every single customer who made a difference this year by opening up their problems and desires to us. From those who paid £1.99 for a kindle copy of my book, to those who paid thousands for consulting projects - you have all been crucial to helping us build our success. 

We would be nowhere without you taking a chance on us, and we certainly hope that we have consistently lived up to your expectations. 

THANK YOU.

Day 4 of 12 Days of Gratitude - My Global, Diverse and Integrative Career

Today my gratitude post is about the coming together of an incredibly diverse global career.

When I left Trinidad and Tobago in 2006 to work in Costa Rica, it was a scary pivotal moment. Learning to drive on the right side in a manual car, speaking Spanish at work, learning how to integrate with a new culture, exploring that beautiful green country. 

I then moved to Internal audit and spent nearly 6 years on the road. I participated or led audit assignments in Venezuela, Argentina, Honduras, Brazil, Costa Rica, Panama, Dominican Republic, Colombia, Guyana, Jamaica, Mexico, Malaysia, Uganda, Uzbekistan, Germany, Sweden, United Kingdom, Netherlands, Romania and more  with colleagues from a far longer list of countries than these. 

I was more often in a hotel bed than my own. I began to call the place where I slept my home. I learned to condense my belongings into 1 suitcase and a backpack. And I learned to be incredibly curious. These experiences made me peel back the onion so to speak on my belief structures, and my why, and gave me a unique insight into the lives of people who I may have otherwise “othered”.

Today I carry 2 passports, but none of them truly represent my identity.

I understood some things now at a completely different level, such as empathy, perspective, opportunity, and injustice.

I’ve now built a portfolio career, from financial reporting and supply chain skills, to coaching, to social impact, justice, change management, capability development, innovation, sustainability reporting and getting more from less.

I owe my career today in sustainability, ethics, DEI and ESG topics to the diversity I experienced in my early career, and the educational choices and educators those experiences fostered.

Thank you!

Day 5 of 12 Days of Gratitude - Helping others

My clients are a source of inspo. In 2022, I worked with sustainability professionals just completing their masters and entering the workplace, seasoned professionals becoming partners, executives at major global corporations. I helped authors, designers and social impact businesses.  I helped major companies with leadership and DEI coaching. 

Here’s a sample of reviews:

The Eco Business Growth Club Incubator:

“I just want to say a huge thank you to Katherine for all the support I've received from the incubator group. I've learned so much in this time, from finance to public relations, different business models that I can apply to achieve different results, ethical sales, and responsible brand stewardship, they have been some of my favourite modules. And these are just absolutely unlike anything I've ever seen before. Some of my other favourite really amazing, and individual modules have been things like managing stress and anxiety, how to write social media copy that is actually effective, and product and supply chain information that I had honestly never considered before. So if you're a woman in sustainable business, this is the incubator group for you. This is the most supportive group of ladies from around the world.”

Sarah Udin - Founder & CEO of Amala Periods Cambodia

Corporate Work

“In March 2022, our Amazon DACH Women's Affinity Group decided to launch a mini series of podcasts, to amplify the message of purpose and social impact and the role of both in our leadership today. We hired Katherine as an external consultant to help us shape the project, source insightful guests, plan and design the content, and conduct the interviews. Katherine took complete ownership of the project, delivering incredibly vulnerable and insightful interviews from prominent leaders in Europe, and helped us create something special for our affinity group community. Thank you so much for your professional and enterprising spirit! we really enjoyed working with you on this mini podcast project ;)”

Anna Derinova Hartmann - CSR, Philanthropy and Humanitarian Aid at Amazon.

Coaching

“Katherine and I met in the hallways of one of my previous employers in 2017. I reached out to her at the end of last year when I knew it was time to start my second career pivot. Through various self-reflection exercises, one-to-one coaching sessions, and weekly meetings in the Career Courageous Club, I have humbly landed a role in an exciting and new industry. I can genuinely say that this would not have been possible without Kathy’s guidance and support. Not only did she make herself available for last minute interview preparations, but she also gave me the confidence to step outside of my comfort zone and kick a** in those calls. Kathy – You are such a beautiful person and I feel immensely grateful to have you as my Career Coach. Looking forward to our next weekly session!”

Day 6 of 12 Days of Gratitude. Growing it together.

The WISBYS - Women in Sustainable Business Awards is coming soon to your inboxes and feeds in 2023, but allow me to introduce the women who are making it happen. 

Our Marketing Director - Gabriela Jauregui. 

Gabriela J. is a revolutionary brand strategist and designer for rebel businesses. She has worked for a wide range of businesses from multi-billion dollar high end-luxury brands to small businesses in their growth phase. Her knowledge in various operations and marketing focused roles provides her with a unique view on branding.
Categories Team - Harriet Mitchell. 

Harriet is a teacher and freelance Virtual Assistant.

After gaining a degree in Psychology and 15 years in the education sector, Harriet is a qualified teacher and works with small business owners and solo entrepreneurs to support them on their business journeys; to help them achieve a better work-life balance, specialising in editing, proofreading and small business admin.

Categories Team - Julie Breckon 

Julie is an entrepreneur who has established and runs several successful independent businesses. Julie is CIPD qualified, a professionally qualified certified bookkeeper, a Bachelor of Philosophy and holds a Masters degree in Computing. Breckon Consulting and Handmade Accounts Training were both set up to provide business owners with user friendly, easy to comprehend, accessible, support and training in the financial and legislative aspects of running a business.

Our Email Marketing Lead - Davey McConnell

 Davey is passionate about changing the way business is done by putting people and the planet above profits. Her eco-friendly virtual assistance business, the Eco Helper, supports fellow purpose-driven entrepreneurs and nonprofits with backend admin & tech systems as well as content creation & management so they can stay consistently visible in their communities. Besides helping businesses run smoothly, she also advises on how to do so in a more eco-conscious way. 

Content & Tech Team - Jen Metcalf 

Jen is a copywriter and editor for sustainable businesses and those that are heading that way. If you’re saving the world but struggling to write about it, Jen can put your actions into words that get noticed. Jen is pivoting into copywriting after 16 years as a German-to-English translator and editor for clients working on climate change. She’s a published writer and is now using her communication skills to help clients sell their ethical products, green services, and planet-friendly content.

Content & Tech Team - Vikki Ackland 

Vikki is a Communications Consultant and Illustrator with a background in managing sustainable businesses. Through her work, she’s had the opportunity to oversee marketing departments, implement local outreach campaigns, support grassroots organising efforts, and create and implement social media strategies for small-to-medium-sized businesses. Her mission is to use illustration, design and copywriting to create positive change by supporting the kind of businesses she wants to see more of. 

Project Manager - Sonia Castello 

Sonia is an experienced professional with an extensive background in Corporate Business Administration and Events Coordination. She is a Spanish and Catalan native speaker, fluent in English and Italian too. She is qualified in Business Administration, and holds a Diploma in Event Management for Marketing & Communications with distinction, by the Chartered Institute of Marketing (CIM).

Events Expert - Michelle Miles

Michelle is the founder of the Sustainable Wedding Alliance, a purpose driven organisation driving sustainable change in the wedding industry. The Alliance works with businesses of all sizes to help them to understand sustainability, what it means for them, and how they can develop long term sustainable strategies that will benefit people, profit and planet. 

Business Integrity Lead - Zoë Brinn

Zoë is the owner of 'Conscious Leaders' - she helps business owners find, train and retain their team members and grow their business, ethically. Zoë helps business owners to build their loyal teams which reduces their workload and stress. She believes that if we focus on one another in our businesses we can not only become more productive and driven, but also make society, especially in the workplace a better place to be. Zoë's background is in senior leadership education and she taught English for many years.

Founder - Katherine Ann Byam

Katherine Ann Byam is a  best-selling author, sustainability activist, coach and consultant for business resilience and sustainable change, partnering with leaders committed to a shared future for life on our planet.”  

This is where I also tell you about the secret code, the easter egg I’ve hidden between episodes 90 to 100 - The easter egg is “I am the earth, and the earth is me” send this sentence to me on the social media of your choice, along with an email address, and I will be in touch on your prizes!

Day 7 of 12 Days of Gratitude - Where Ideas Launch Season 5 Guests - The Great Debates of our time.

Where Ideas Launch is in its 3rd year. What an honour I have to host such an incredible set of professionals, each working to make an important difference to our lives on our one planet.

Season 5’s premise was to present ideas and discussion points that could be polarising and explore the different sides of it. It was inspired by an earlier podcast episode interview with David Gurteen on The Knowledge Delusion and Conversational Leadership, and my guests this season have not disappointed.

Season 5 starts from Episode 71 and my guests and their topics include: 

071 Jenny K Wright - The Ins and Outs of Migration

072 Susan Krumdieck - Transition Engineering

073 Marie Lockwood and Sam Pitman - Sustainability Subscriptions 

074 The 3 Engineers - The Adventures of Scout

075 Sarah Almond Bushell - Demystifying Nutrition and Feeding

078 Belinda Ng - Youth Perspectives on Food Security

080 Sarah Udin - Youth Perspectives on Periods

081 Gabriela Jauregui - Guilt Free Branding

082 Kate Hall - The Full Freezer

084 Belinda, Serena Coccioli and Kailin Spencer - Youth Perspectives on Climate and Community

085 Michelle Miles - The Sustainable Wedding Alliance

086 Davey McConnell - The Eco Helpers

087 Russ Avery - Marketing Good or Evil

088 Nancy Hyne - Becoming a B Corp

089 Selina Ho - Recloseted

090 Tara Pigott - Youth Perspectives on Design

091 Irete Hamdani - Ask Belynda

092 Katie Skelton - Duck for Impact

093 Jaime Snell - Eco - Crates of America

Celebrating all the podcasts achievements:

Listened to in # 96 countries.

Charted in # 89 different charts

Charted in # 46 countries

Top 20 in # 36 Charts

Top 10 in # 21 Charts

Number # 1 in 6 Charts

Ranked # 7 UK Innovation Podcasts

Ranked # 16 UK Sustainability Podcasts

Rated 5 Stars *****

Thank you!

Day 8 of 12 Days of Gratitude Do What Matters - Career and Leadership on Purpose Podcast

I wanted to deliver not just a static book, but a live system to help people make important pivots with their careers, particularly around topics such as climate change, social justice, and good corporate governance. 

Do What Matters is my best selling book, but the podcast provides dynamic weekly content that builds upon the ideas in the book.

Every week I post one journal entry or 10 minute lesson from me, and one interview with a guest. 

Here’s the amazing list of guests I’ve had on the show so far:

002 Shane Ward - The Purposeful Pivot

003 Tessa Clarke - Share More Waste Less

004 Sherika Sherard - Busking Through Vulnerability

005 Kysha Gibson - DEI is my Job

007 Melissa Rider Carson - Perfectly Imperfect

009 Juan Luis Betancourt - Human Intelligence

011 Chris Pirie - Potential and Purpose

013 Kirsten Forbes - Surviving Afghanistan

015 Ashley Dash - The Profitable Resume

017 Belinda Ng, Serena Coccioli, Kailin Spencer - Career Climate and Community

019 Andrew Montgomery  - Black in Design

021 Marie Claire Krayenhoff - Mindfulness and Meditation

023 Lupina Valdes - Culture at work

025 Kysha Gibson - Women in Consulting

027 Nadine Bender Branham - Women in Tech

029 Harry Vargas - Future of Work and Talent

Thanks for participating and making this a great podcast - and thanks to everyone listening, we know you have around 3 million choices of podcasts, thanks for choosing us! 

Celebrating all the podcasts achievements:

Listened to in # 52 countries.

Charted in # 15 different charts

Charted in # 10 countries

Top 20 in # 3 Charts

Top 10 in # 1 Charts

Rated 5 Stars *****

Day 9 of 12 Days of Gratitude My Team

Today is my last gratitude post until after the holidays, so this day is dedicated to my team. I do a great many things, and it's only possible because of the amazing people who support me.

My Instagram Socials Manager - Myca, who has been fundamental to my business growth on the gram!

About Myca Favorito

Myca is an Instagram Marketing Strategist for sustainable businesses. In just over a year in business, she has helped multiple small businesses and non-profits spread brand awareness,  get a warm pool of leads, curate compelling content that converts and, maintain good and lasting relationships with their audience through creating, implementing, and overseeing purpose-driven social media strategies.

Her mission is to help businesses that do good convert more people to become leaders of change and be committed in taking small, but impactful steps towards a better and brighter tomorrow.

Next is Harriet, who started off as a client, and has become the engineer behind the scenes of my podcasts, both for Where Ideas Launch and Do What Matters Careers.

About Harriet Mitchell

After gaining a degree in Psychology and 15 years in the education sector, Harriet is a qualified teacher who boasts 2 year’s experience as a Head of School.

Harriet works with small business owners and solo entrepreneurs to support them on their business journeys; to help them achieve a better work-life balance, whilst specialising in editing, proofreading and small business admin.

A passionate advocate for the planet, Harriet also has a side hustle business where she supports people to lower their waste, make sustainable choices and gain knowledge of their impact on earth. She creates a range of plastic free and reusable alternatives for the home. Her children are a driving force and are behind her business name; TillyBoo’s.

My Bookkeeper Kat Stonehill. Kat and her company Pinder Stonehill Supporting charities, social enterprises and values led small businesses to take control of their accounts and understand their numbers.

Kat is thorough, always on time, and supportive, and her support has been amazing this past year!

Finally, to my partner in life and business, Christophe.

Chris is CIO and Data Scientist and the force behind Dieple Consulting, supporting complex IT integration and data projects in medium sized companies for the past few years. Chris's work has been so influential, he's in the process of being snapped up by a larger firm in 2023, giving him the opportunity to work on much bigger projects in the future. We will miss him Dieple Consulting & Training Limited, and it will mean changes for our company! More on those changes in 2023!!

Thanks for joining me on this gratitude Journey for the past couple weeks, and tune in for more next week and the first week of Jan, as I provide the final 3 days of gratitude for a year well spent :)

Day 10 of 12 Days of Gratitude: Maternity

It’s a great time to dedicate a post to the importance of family when you are building anything; a business, a career, a life. 

I spent the last few days with my partner's family in France. We come from different cultures, so there are many differences in the meals, the traditions, the greetings, but there are a few fundamentals that are pretty much the same.

Mothers are the matriarchs and “boss” things when it comes to family gatherings: in a role that appears to come naturally to them. Things I’ve found to be similar between the UK and France; 

The significance of the occasion - as evidenced by the cutlery you don’t see all year long until Christmas.

The supply of such a broad variety of food: They are seldom happy until you are full to overflowing, the instinct to facilitate life through feeding is undeniable in every culture I’ve experienced; and that’s quite a few!

Family gives you a different perspective. The continuation of your line, and for most with young children, family represents legacy. This belief system is so deeply entrenched, that often we can’t see our descendents outside of the relatives they remind us of. We are hardly our own identity when around family, which has both upsides and downsides. The strength of family is in the feeling of community. 

For those of us without children, we form other types of communities, with colleagues, clients, friends. When we come to our family gatherings, there are perhaps fewer plates at the table each time, and the nostalgia can sometimes be left with a tinge of sadness.

When your children don’t define your legacy, you are perhaps more driven to make your own life mean something: represent more than just one life well lived. Some do this through wealth accumulation, others through impact. 

As I watched my mum in law work her magic, and listened to my mom via whatsapp talk about preparing food back home for the many visitors she expects to come through her doors over the 2 main holidays, I realised how much of our lives we owe to the maternal presences in them, and how their selflessness continues to inspire our own.

This is dedicated to mothers, and my gratitude for the life they give.

Day 11 of 12 Days of Gratitude - The Haters

There’s something about negativity that gives us extra motivation to succeed, if we can find a way to turn that feedback into useful insight when needed.

Life, careers, work, relationships, come with tough situations, and we are better off learning how to deal with them, than pretending they don’t exist.

Greta nailed her troll master on twitter last week, showing that even the most notorious of trolls can be thwarted.

The thing about the haters is this - often they represent a minority, and integrating their feedback without further exploration can be harmful to your business, unless the view is a common one, and these are the few people willing to share their thoughts with you. This is when that age old serenity prayer becomes relevant: understanding what to change, what to maintain the same, and knowing the difference.

The ways I’ve learned to deal with online, or other forms of hate:

1- Look for positive intentions. 

2- When the positive intent is hard to find, look at the context. 

3- The service relationship or nature of the transaction. 

4- Sometimes it’s just hate. 

5 - The Gaslighters. 

6 - Race relations. 

We don’t run from challenges, we embrace them when we think they make us stronger. 

Day 12 of 12 Days of Gratitude My Wellbeing

On my final day of gratitude, I’d like to thank me!

The last few years have not been easy, culminating in a 2022 which saw me doing more blood tests and medical examinations than any other year, mainly because of one thing: balance, or lack of it.

Still, my mind and body got me to this point, almost working against each other, just imagine what they can achieve if they co-operated for a change?

As we ring in 2023, I’ll be working on making mental me and physical me one. 

I recently watched Limitless - a National Geographic documentary by Chris Hemsworth. Everything he did in those 6 episodes is way extreme for me, but they prompted me to acknowledge how much stronger I can be if I gave more gravitas in my decision making to my overall wellbeing. 

So today I want to thank body and mind for enduring their lack of synchronicity to support me so far, and I hope for them to be best friends in 2023.

Happy New Year Everyone!

About this Episode

Jen is a copywriter and editor for sustainable businesses and those that are heading that way. If you’re saving the world but struggling to write about it, Jen can put your actions into words that get noticed. Jen is pivoting into copywriting after 16 years as a German-to-English translator and editor for clients working on climate change. She’s a published writer and is now using her communication skills to help clients sell their ethical products, green services, and planet-friendly content.

Episode Transcript

Jen Metcalf 0:01
I'm slightly concerned, this might be controversial, but I'm gonna go there anyways, my biggest challenge making this pivot was deciding to enter this niche. And it's because as an outsider to the sustainability field, there's a real sense you have to get it all right, you have to live 110% sustainably, you have to know all the right things to say professionally, you have to have all the answers, I think a bit of a sense that the sustainability niche is full of saints. But I definitely don't get it all right, I can't get it right. None of us can, because we live in a system that is powered by fossil fuels. So that was a real obstacle for choosing this niche. Now I'm in it, I realise that it's not that clear cut. But I think for me, that's an interesting issue to think about now that I work in sustainability communications, I suppose, is trying to break down that sense among people, the public that you have to sacrifice everything on the altar of sustainability.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:04
This is Season Five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because, we or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet, if we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views but never at either extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy Season Five of Where Ideas Launch; The Sustainable Innovation Podcast. Jen is a copywriter and editor for sustainable businesses and those that are heading that way. If you're saving the world but struggling to write about it, Jen can put your actions into words that get noticed. Jen is pivoting into copywriting after 16 years as a German to English translator and editor for clients working on climate change. She's a published writer, and is now using her communication skills to help clients sell their ethical products, screen services, and planet friendly content. Jen, welcome to Where Ideas Launch. It's such a pleasure to host you.

Jen Metcalf 2:34
Thanks so much. I'm really pleased to be here.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:36
I want to thank you, first of all, for signing up to work with us on the WISBYS this event that's coming up in May 2023. And I really value your keen insight on ethical copy. And of course, this is a conversation I'm keen to get into. So tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to be in Berlin, first of all, and then your pivot to copy and sustainability.

Jen Metcalf 2:56
I studied French and German at university. And as part of that I spent a year in Hamburg. And during that time my boyfriend was out visiting. And we decided to go to Berlin for the weekend I'd never been before. And we argued all weekend. It was dreadful, but so we were kind of falling out of love with each other. But I really fell in love with Berlin that weekend. And sometimes I wonder if like, it was also a bit of a scratching a genetic itch, because my parents actually met in Berlin years ago. I mean, they're both from the UK, but they just happened to be both in Berlin in the 1970s, and in the same bar or wherever. So I kind of owe my existance to Berlin as well, which is kind of weird. I fell in love with the city. And then I went back to the UK. And a couple years later, when I'd done my masters in translation I decided to try living here. So I got a job at a subtitling and translation company, I spent a couple of really happy years translating obscure German films into English with some brilliant people. Then I moved to a translation agency that did just text translation, and sort of by accident, I became a bit of our in house expert on translations of texts about renewable energy, climate science, climate action, climate policy. So I got really interested in it through the work that was being put on my desk. Basically, I took that niche with me when I went freelance as a translator. And over the years, I gradually started doing more editing of English texts and translation, and more and more the editing would sometimes be complete rewrites. So I was starting to get into writing. And a couple of years ago, I decided, look, I'm quite into this. I would like to make it you know, more of a focus of my business. So I got interested in copywriting, but I didn't want to leave the sustainability niche and I, was, felt a bit quite high climate anxiety. So I didn't want to go into a role where I felt like I was just selling stuff. And then I discovered that there was a whole community of people out there using marketing and copywriting to sell sustainability and persuade people to go down that route. And so I decided to do that. And here we are.

Katherine Ann Byam 5:03
So you told me that you were drawn to Berlin? Is there a higher consciousness about sustainability in Berlin? Is there something about that place that also kept you awake to it and also probably kept your eco anxiety alive a bit?

Jen Metcalf 5:17
That's a really interesting question actually, I think, I've never sort of thought about it in that context. And I'm definitely here because I just, I've just always felt very comfortable here. And I think what, an interesting, interesting thing about Germany and sustainability is outside of Germany, the country has a really big reputation for being really into recycling, and quite green. And as much as I love this country, when you live here, you realise that that's, I mean, like all these things, it's not always, you know, as wonderful as it appears from the outside. And certainly, Berlin has heightened my climate anxiety and my awareness for all the different puzzle pieces that need to be addressed. To tackle the whole problem it's definitely heightened my awareness of that because it's a city, but the number of cars here is quite overwhelming, like they don't have double yellow lines, for instance. So in my neighbourhood, every inch of every curb, is parked up with cars, even the parts of the curbs that go down. So that are supposed to be for the pedestrians to be able to go across. And there are rules about where you're supposed to park and where you're not supposed to park, but they're not enforced. So over the years, that sort of, you know, drilled more and more into my awareness, and it certainly from my perspective, I think it really reduces the livability of the sort of the quality of life of the city. And it's a very big topic here as well. So I think that's definitely heightened my awareness and my, I guess, my desire to sort of do something that tries to find a solution to the problem in some way. So I'm not sure about higher purpose. And I don't know if this awareness would have come regardless of where I was living. But certainly living in the middle of a very urban city in a country that is very tied to its car industry, understandably, I mean, it's been built on its car industry to a large degree. So as much as I'm a huge proponent of reducing the number of cars on the road and switching to electric vehicles and designing cities around people instead of vehicles. I understand why there is you know, why Germany is so tied to its car industry, so I think those aspects of living in Berlin have sharpened my thoughts on climate.

Yeah, I get that, I interviewed once a guy who works for a sustainability advisory in Munich. And the whole focus of his advisory service is around pivoting to electric and moving to electric cars. And, and I want to challenge him about that. I'm like, Well, why do we need cars at all right, but I didn't realise even at that time, how deeply entrenched the car is in Germany's culture, you know? So it's, it's really not quite heard of, I mean, yes, I've seen that, you know, Germany has made its train fares very cheap, recently. So something like nine euro or something, and you can get to most places, I don't know how, how that has impacted or positively impacted the country, in your view?

Well, the nine Euro ticket was, it was only available, I think it was July, August and September. I think that's I think I'm right in saying, it was for three months. And on the one hand, it was great, obviously, from my perspective, people have different views. It made, you know, public transport all across Germany, or train travel all across Germany, available to everyone, even if you didn't have much money. And it also, Germany is a federal country, so the states all have their, states and the cities have their own public transport authorities. I mean, like we do in the UK, as well. So every state and city has a different kind of tariff structure and a different way of buying tickets. So, but this nine Euro ticket was valid across the whole country. So that was great. People started to complain a bit because obviously, lots of people were then using the rail network, and the trains were very crowded. So it was very good in one sense, because it proved that you can shift people onto public transport if, if you make sort of the conditions better, more affordable. But it showed that if you're going to do that, you have to invest in the infrastructure as well. And like, I mean, it's not as bad here is in the UK, but there's not enough investment in the in the rail network. So you need more trains, you'd need more regular services. So it was definitely a good move. But it showed up some flaws in the system. And certainly Berlin now is introducing a 29 Euro ticket, I think, I haven't checked out the actual details of it but they are trying to sort of carry on the nine Euro ticket in some form while charging more than nine euros.

And do you have any other influences in your life that would have led you to this place of working for sustainable brands, what else pushed you in this direction?

I would say, I mean, sustainability has, certainly since I've been at university, it's always been in my universe, because some of my friends either worked in the sector or have devoted their entire careers to fighting climate change with their career, so to speak. So one of my friends opened an ethical clothing boutique in London, just after university. And that was quite a while ago. And it was, I think, certainly, from my knowledge, it was one of the first shops that I'd known that sold sustainable clothes that you actually wanted to wear, they were really stylish, they were much more stylish than I am. So that was sort of my first meeting with the idea that you could make sustainable choices without having to completely sort of sacrifice, glamour or making yourself feel good. So that was a really interesting learning for me, I suppose. And a very good friend of mine has devoted her entire career to tackling climate change. She works for an organisation that looks at sustainable cities. And she is also behind a new journal that's just been launched with research into sustainable cities that have very high levels of policymakers and mayors and that sort of thing. But obviously, she's a very close friend of mine. So I hear a lot about that from her. And I just find her incredibly inspiring, and she does her work without sort of preaching without making people feel bad. And so having those kinds of people in my universe showed me that I could devote your job to helping tackle the climate crisis, it was a viable career.

Katherine Ann Byam 11:38
And we're gonna move now to a different tack, and I'm gonna put you on the spot, because I like doing this to marketing people. But I believe that marketing and persuasion and psychology has the power to transform and not always for the good. I wanted to know what your thoughts are about that. And what's happening in the field of marketing and copy and persuasion?

Jen Metcalf 11:59
Yeah, I mean, that's a really good point. And it's a really good question. And it's certainly one I asked myself when I was thinking about getting into this niche when I was thinking about pivoting into copywriting. And, you know, like any superpower, persuasion can be used for good and for evil. But the fact is, we have to sell sustainability, we have to sell the need for climate action, we have to persuade people and businesses and policymakers that well, now we have to take quite radical action. I think marketing and copywriting offer really good tools for doing that, these persuasionary tactics have been sort of driving our desires for decades. And there's nothing to say that they can't be used to drive our desires in a different direction. I mean, there's no higher reason why we desire BMWs, or why we desired cigarettes back in the day, you know, marketing took us there. And marketing made us think, well, I don't mind parting with 50,000 pounds for this luxury car or parting with five pounds for this mascara. So I believe that those same tactics can be used to steer us in different direction. And I think what copywriting and marketing do really well is they they spend a lot of time and effort and money getting to know their target audience or their clients target audience. And then they work really hard to talk to that audience, in their language on their terms to make, to sort of touch their emotions, don't wany to get too poetic about this, but it's about emotion a lot of the time. And I think that those tactics are really valuable for moving people into more sustainable behaviours, moving people into voting for parties that are going to do something about climate change. And you know, getting people involved in projects in their local community. It's an endless list. And I think that that is needed in the space of sustainability and communicating climate change. Because I feel like for a long time, the communication in that space has been sort of from a bit of a one size fits all perspective, like there's an assumption that everybody feels this sort of reverent love for nature, or everybody thinks that it's bad that there's cars on the road, and it's sort of come from this one size fits all place. And I think that if there's more thought given to 'who am I talking to?', 'what's important to them?', 'and how can I tie that into sustainable choices or taking climate action?', that we can achieve a lot with that. I've just read Katharine Hayhoe's book called saving us, I think, and her point is that climate change affects every single aspect of everybody's lives, whether we know it or not, whether we like it or not. And so that in a way gives us endless opportunities to talk about the need for climate action or the need for sustainable choices with anybody and you know, she, she is a Christian and she has had a lot of success in talking to other Christians about the need for climate action in the context of the teachings of the Bible, I won't go too far into that, because it's not my specialist field. But instead of meeting those people and talking about what she thinks is important in climate change, she thought about what's important to these people, talks to them in that context, and then they're working from a common ground, and nobody feels spoken down to and you can see how climate action affects your own personal life. So I think from that perspective, marketing, and copywriting has a lot to bring to the table in terms of understanding that everybody sees the world differently, and finding ways to persuade people based on their concerns and their interests.

Katherine Ann Byam 15:43
No absolutely, I like how you put that because often, I've been debating with myself, I mean, I've been in business now for four years, roughly, and I've not pushed sales, I've always been reticent about pushing my product or service, even if I know the intention of my product and service, even if I know the customer and the client that they need help. I'm often cautious about being really forceful with my marketing efforts with my persuasion efforts, because I want that people come to their own conclusion. But then time and time again, I see potential customers go to less ethical brands for support, get burned, and then I asked myself, well, should I have pushed more? Like, would it have been better to push more? And I think this comes to to something in psychology that they talk about, which is Machiavellianism. Right? Is it? It's for the greater good. Like, if it's for the greater good. Should I push more? And, you know, this is this is kind of the conversation I have with myself a lot. Right? So it's definitely the, I think if you're not having some ethical debates, you're not alive, right? And this is one of mine. And I found it so difficult to kind of just focus on perhaps, you know, getting my message out there as clearly as possible and as consistently as possible, as opposed to worrying about being like the others. And I think that, that's probably where I've gone the most wrong in my, in my four years of experience. I don't know what your your thoughts and reflections are on that?

Jen Metcalf 17:19
Well, I think that's interesting, because regardless of what you're selling, a lot of small business owners have those same thoughts, and I have them myself when you're marketing yourself that, God I don't want to be pushy, am I being too salesy. So those are legitimate concerns, and entirely understandable because everybody hates salesy things. Nobody likes to feel that they're being put under intense pressure to buy something. But I think, first of all, if you're offering something that's going to benefit people benefit the planet in inverted commas, you have every right to promote that, and you should promote it. And I know there are ethical ways of doing that. There are ways of promoting something that basically makes people feel like you're holding a gun to their head, or making them feel stupid for being in the situation they're currently in. Or you can speak to them ethically, and maybe come to this a bit later, but show empathy for the situation that they're in, and then talk to them about your solution and give them the chance to buy that solution, but sell it in such a way that they don't feel under pressure to do it.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:29
Absolutely, totally get that and I like where we're going with this. So love this conversation already. What successes have you had so far? And what has surprised you the most in your journey so far?

Jen Metcalf 18:39
Well, I'm chalking it up as a success that I've made this pivot because I think pivoting at any stage of your career is not necessarily an easy thing to do. I've certainly had an awful lot of doubts about it, but I'm pleased that I've done it. And I'm doing it. In actual copywriting, I recently had a very nice project where I wrote a couple of email marketing sequences for a small family run business in the States. And so that involved developing a tone of voice with them and drafting the actual structure of the emails. And the founders are really lovely people. They're really kind and really encouraging to their target audience and to their staff, their target audience is of people setting up or running small, creative businesses working with them on that was really rewarding. And they were really happy with the result, which was also really rewarding. That's what I want at the end of the day. So that was a nice copywriting success for me recently. And I think in terms of what surprised me most has probably been discovering this huge community of really inspiring people working in the ethical marketing, ethical copy arena, and seeing you know how dynamic it is, all the discussions going on, how dedicated people are to this cause, so to speak. That's been a very pleasant surprise. Not that I didn't expect it was there but I've never really thought about it. So to discover that has been very nice and very uplifting. Also, I feel whenever you discover something that's going well, in terms of climate change, climate action, it's very uplifting because if you just look at the newspapers, it's all doom and gloom.

Katherine Ann Byam 20:12
Absolutely agree. And I think we don't toot our own horns enough, we don't celebrate the wins enough. And this is one of the things that I really, I really wanted to embrace with the WISBYS. Because I recognise in my own voice, I speak exactly from the heart. I don't think about a brand voice, pillars, strategy. I mean, I have some pillars that I talk about in my personal life, or, or whatever, but I am my business. So I therefore speak from my heart. And for the WISBYS I made a deliberate effort to create a brand voice that's overwhelmingly positive, and not to annoy people, because that can also be annoying, but mainly to, to just look at things from a lens of hope, because it's so easy to get sucked into well, what's the point, and do what everybody else does, if you lose hope. And I think this idea of hope has to be the most important idea, like there is nothing more important than selling hope at the moment.

Jen Metcalf 21:12
Absolutely. I totally agree. And I think there's a lot of content and books at the moment talking about, we're not going to get anywhere by just talking about doom and gloom, we're not, it turns us into rabbits in the headlights, you know, we're just so overwhelmed at the awfulness of it all, that we don't know where to start, or we're too scared to start. And so it's a natural human reaction or reflex to just blend it out. And I had an interesting conversation, I saw some of my family recently, and she said to me, it's just, it's just awful, no one's doing anything on climate. And I could totally understand the sentiment, but I also was like, oh, loads of people are doing loads of things about the climate, it's just they get such little air time. And unless this space is your business, or you just personally want to spend a lot of time in it, you don't hear those stories. And so I think, you know, like the WISBYS having a really positive brand voice and giving space to people who are doing great things for the climate is so valuable right now. Because if you think that nothing's being done, then it feels all the more pointless to do anything.

Katherine Ann Byam 22:19
So we don't have to talk about the challenges, though. So this is this is a necessary part of of life and not necessarily to dwell on them or not necessarily to discard them either. Tell us about some of the challenges and obstacles you've encountered in making this pivot and sort of your reflections on that now.

Jen Metcalf 22:36
I'm slightly concerned, this might be controversial, but I'm gonna go there anyways, to be honest, my biggest challenge making this pivot was deciding to enter this niche. And it's because as an outsider to the need to the sustainability field to working in climate action, with climate change from the outside, there's a real sense that you have to get it all right, if you're gonna go into that field. And actually, even if you don't just as a person, there's a sense that you have to get it all right, you have to live 110% sustainably, you have to know all the right things to say professionally, you have to have all the answers. And I'm sure a lot of that comes from my own anxieties. But there is, I think, a bit of a sense that the sustainability niche is full of saints, but none of us are saints. And I'm certainly not a saint. And I try to live as sustainable a life as I can. But I definitely don't get it all right, I can't get it all right, none of us can because we live in a system that is powered by fossil fuels. So that was a real obstacle for choosing this niche. And now I'm in it, I realised that it's not that clear cut. But I think for me, that's an interesting issue to think about now that I work in sustainability communications, I suppose, is trying to break down that sense among people, the public, that, you know, environmentalism, you have to be a do gooder, you have to sacrifice everything on the altar of sustainability. I'm exaggerating a bit here, but you get my point. And now I'm in here, I sort of want to be a voice that says, look, we're not all perfect. It's just about doing the best you can right now and keep improving. But to go back to the obstacle, now from where I'm sitting, I wonder if this sort of aura of perfection that surrounds environmentalism, I think it's quite detrimental because it puts people off taking any action at all. And I wonder if some of it comes from the heavy focus on greenwashing. And again, this might be controversial, but there's so much talk about greenwashing in the press and in the world that I wonder if that also puts people off doing anything. And it is because now we have the term greenhushing, which is where people or businesses don't talk at all about any of the good stuff they're doing sustainability wise, because they're scared of being shamed for not doing everything right. Of course, we need to call out greenwashing when it's being done deliberately. But I just wonder if we need to shift some of the focus away from the greenwashers and give that oxygen to people, businesses, politicians who are doing it right or righter because none of us can get it 100% right. And that I think might make the overall field of sustainability and climate action more open and welcoming to everyone, to other businesses who want to talk about what they're doing, or who even want to learn about what they can do. So that was my main obstacle. And it's given me a lot of food for thought, but I'm glad I'm over, I overcame it. And I'm glad I'm in here.

Katherine Ann Byam 25:35
I love this, like, I'm so excited listening to this and having this debate with you, because I think these are important things to talk about at the beginning of the WISBYS. And this is a bit of airing of it, the laundry of the WISBYS. But this is part of our brand ethos, we had a very interesting and involved debate amongst all the volunteers about which brands to request sponsorship from. And on the one hand, I had a particular brand that people have particular feelings about, not positive ones, willing to give me some money. And then on the other hand, I have other brands I could I could approach but the problem with those other brands is that they're so they're so out there that they probably have everyone going to them. So here I am in a situation of an open hand, basically extending me some money. But for the team, this was not the kind of image we want to associate the work that we're doing with and this is a difficult conversation, because again, you have to go where the money is at times in order to put it where it needs to be. And is it, is this a case of us, for example, condoning the business practices of said entity? Or is it a case of us trying to make that money, do something more positive and going deeper into that, I know the people working there, so I know that people are responsible for the social impact work of that company, I know them personally, they've been committed to social impact all their lives, and then doing this work is because they want to go where the money is to put the money where it needs to be. So as you start thinking about that, and as you start scratching the surface of everything, you realise there's a lot more ethical sort of nuance to how you make a decision about who to get funding from, you know, who to post your brand with, how to talk about that relationship, you know, and how to navigate that space, even within your close quarters, far less for any external world because of exactly what you say there's a lot of judgement. So all the judgments on that brand suddenly comes on to my brand for receiving that money, even though my intentions are completely pure with it. So there's a lot in there.

Jen Metcalf 27:42
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's literally an ethical minefield. And I think perhaps in the past that hasn't been made clear enough, or it hasn't been admitted enough. And you get the real sense, certainly from outside. I mean, I'm sure if you've been inside the field for a very long time, you see things differently, but I'm talking about someone who's been outside it for a while, but and you have a real sense that you're you know, you're either greenwashing or you're a good company, you're either good, or you're bad, basically. And there's a very clear line, and you have to stay on either side of it. And it's just not that simple, primarily because the whole system is environmentally unfriendly, you know, we can't snap our fingers and live in a system that allows us to make 100% ethical choices, sustainable choices all the time. And I think admitting that we're in an ethical minefield and accepting that, but also talking about it and discussing the issues is really important to make some real headway and to get more people involved. If we all accept that there's often no right answer, like in any other area of life, there'll be less fear about trying to start making steps in the right direction. And in your case, obviously, that's a real ethical dilemma. But like you say, like, if you take the money from that brand, or that company, you can do something good with it. So you know, there's an argument clearly, there's arguments on both sides, and there's nobody standing there with, you know, it's not a maths exam, there's not a right or a wrong answer. You have to weigh it up.

Katherine Ann Byam 29:10
Absolutely. And I think this is such an important conversation. So thank you for bringing it thank you for bringing the controversy. And I think like ethics conversations, I like them because I feel as if there's always a net gain when we spend time talking about ethics, you leave an ethics conversation bigger with growth, if you understand what I mean, there's no way for you to stay the same and stay static when you're talking about this sort of debate. So I feel really good about that. Moving on to your big hairy goals and and what you see upcoming for you in the future.

Jen Metcalf 29:42
Okay, so my one big hairy goal, I suppose the first one would be I really want to become the go to copywriter for clients who are willing to think outside the box and be bold when it comes to their sustainability content when it comes to talking about their ethical products or their water saving projects, it's so common to see really baige writing in this field. And I think that's partly because people are understandably nervous about talking about it for the reasons just discussed, but there's so much value in bringing the same kind of creativity, the same kind of strong, unique voice to your sustainability content as any other brand brings to its content. So you know, there's brands like who gives a crap, Tony's chalkalone, chocalonely, I can never pronounce it, reformation, and of course, Oatley, they all have really strong brand voices, and they are all sustainable to a greater or lesser degree, they're all trying to do good things. And they're so fun, they're so engaging, their message stays with you much more than if they're using the same bland sustainability language that everybody's using. And there's, I mean, there's a lot of people talking about this at the moment, I'm not reinventing the wheel. But I think it's a really exciting area. And I would really love to help more businesses, more clients or organisations be bold in their sustainability content. And I suppose my biggest goal is that I hope that one day, I'm forced to give up this niche because it doesn't exist anymore, because all businesses and all products are, and all services are sustainable, or regenerative or whatever word we're using when it comes to it. So I hope that becomes the norm so that my niche doesn't exist anymore. And one more thing that I'm really aiming for is I really want to contribute to the discussion around how to communicate sustainability, how to communicate climate action, and climate science. I'm reading loads of books at the moment about it. And I've just got a million ideas and opinions in my head. So I'm trying to pluck up the courage to start a substack or something like that, so that I can get those ideas and opinions out there. And then get feedback on them, whether good or bad, because I think it's such a fascinating area. And I really want to progress in it. And I want to contribute to it. And so I want to put myself out there for people to say yes, no, I see it differently, because then you can really make progress and grow.

Katherine Ann Byam 32:07
I love it. I love the goals, and all, all here to support you. Moving to some tips. And I know that my listeners would have already enjoyed a lot of what you shared. But can you give us some thought processes and frameworks to consider how to make our copy more ethical and still do the job that copy needs to do?

Jen Metcalf 32:27
I think the overarching aim, you want to think about; if you're writing sales copy, so you want people to buy X that you've made, be kind. So if you're writing sales copy, you're selling a product or a service, I think your overarching goal needs to be, be kind, ask yourself, if I was reading this would I feel like someone was holding a gun to my head; buy this product, buy this service. So that's overarching and you can do that by when you're writing your sales copy, be empathetic, of course, you need to talk about the problem that your audience is having and that your product or service is going to solve. And you can do that by making them feel bad for having that problem. Or you can do that by emphasising with their problem and making them feel like hey, you get it because you do because that's why you've developed this product or this service, and then show them what your product service can do for them and allow them to buy it if they want. Obviously, don't use false scarcity, don't have a clock counting down to some randomly chosen deadline. Don't create unnecessary pressure for your reader to buy your product. Those are sort of some very general things. So I think be kind, be empathetic, don't put your reader under unnecessary pressure. On the other side of the coin. I would also say think about; am I making my reader feel bad for not being sustainable enough. Am I being preachy? Am I being sanctimonious because I think that doesn't get talked about a lot. But for a lot of people out there sustainability has a real sheen of preaching us and sanctimonious. So I think it's important just to think a bit about that. When you're writing copy, don't make your readers feel bad for having the problem that you're solving. But also don't make them feel bad for not being sustainable enough. Be diverse. Don't use cliched gender roles, don't automatically assume that mums is going to be doing the cooking or that you're going to have a mum and a dad, if you have any influence over the visuals that are going to be used make sure that they're not all white people, particularly white men. So that's an important consideration and then greenwashing - don't greenwash. greenwashing is where you overstate your green credentials, and you don't say anything about what you're not doing so well, don't do that. It's dishonest. And some countries are actually introducing regulations and laws against it. So be open about what you're doing well, if you're talking about your sustainability actions, but also be open about where you still need to improve, and this is from a business perspective, this is also a really good thing to do because it makes people trust you and if people trust you, they're more likely to buy from you or choose your services, so honesty, and then more going into just sort of the more general copy things, don't be afraid to use a unique tone of voice. Like I said before, you know, you've got brands, like who gives a crap and reformation, they're really bold with their tone of voice. And it just makes it so much more interesting and so much more fun to read. And you're putting this marketing out there, you're putting the sustainability content out there so that people read it. So let them have fun reading it or enjoy reading it. And another thing to consider is you don't necessarily have to put sustainability front and centre in your copywriting even if you have a sustainable product, because especially if you're trying to attract an audience that isn't exclusively made up of people who are already keen to save the planet, sustainability might not be the main concern of your audience. So think about that. We've got a vegan doughnut shop here that makes amazing doughnuts. They do say they're vegan in their marketing, but the focus is on the doughnuts, and they're great. So you don't have to always stress, we're sustainable we're ethical stress the other benefits of your of your product as well, because that is also what helps you stand out.

Katherine Ann Byam 36:06
Tell me listeners, how can they get in touch and work with you if they want to.

Jen Metcalf 36:10
So I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, Jen Metcalf on LinkedIn. So come and find me there and tell me your opinion of something that I've posted. I'm always interested to hear what people think you can also email me at hello at Jen metcalf.com. And if you're in Berlin, we can just go for a coffee. I know a very good doughnut shop.

Katherine Ann Byam 36:27
Oh, it's absolutely wonderful to chat with you today, Jen, I loved your tips. I loved the ethical focus and openness of your conversation. So thank you so much, and really a pleasure to have you.

Jen Metcalf 36:40
You're welcome. It was a pleasure to be here.

Katherine Ann Byam 36:45
This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new Women In Sustainable Business Awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion, or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation, you are more than welcome to join us, and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group, on Facebook; Woman In Sustainable Business, or follow the podcast; Where Ideas Launch, on Instagram to find out more.

About this Episode

Jaime Snell is the founder of Eco Crates of America and The Eco Mama Podcast.

Jaime lives in the Upstate of South Carolina in the USA. She is a mom to three, happily married, and sharing her life passions while putting them to good use for the greater good. 

She developed her footing by receiving a B.A. in Business Management and a master's Degree in International Business from the University of Florida. 

She enjoyed working many years with the Ritz-Carlton in South Florida before pursuing her passion for holistic wellness as a buyer for Whole Foods Market. After taking time off from her career to focus on her family, she put her energies into developing her own company, Eco Crates of America. This organization provides a monthly subscription program of carefully curated items for your home that are safe and non-toxic, and eco-friendly.

Additionally, Jaime provides a wealth of knowledge on a full range of products and lifestyle habits through her blog and various social media channels that benefit the family home and the Earth. Including a recently launched podcast, The Eco Mama Podcast. In the podcast, she shares personal stories of her family's journey to living a low-tox life and education on harmful ingredients we should all avoid in our everyday products.

When Jaime is not busy in the mom life of her three young children and managing her company, you will find her walking barefoot in her garden or sipping coffee while listening to the river flow just beyond her property. 

Episode Transcript

Jamie Snell 0:01
This one is really key for me, teach your children how to care for the earth as if it were a part of the family. Like when it's literally like, would you leave that in your grandma's living room? No, let's pick it up. Let's take it to the trash can, let's take it with us. Just having that respect for the earth as much as they do for those they love really, really makes an impact. Yeah. And that leads into being an example for sustainable leading to others, especially children, because you're going to want them to pay it forward when it's their time to be the leaders for our country, avoid personal care and home cleaning products that contain, these are like my top four that I avoid at all costs, there's a big list that I have on my website called the 'no thank you list' that we strive to avoid, but these top four; avoid fragrances, parabens, phthalates, and sulphates. sulphates are also called SLS or sodium lauryl sulphate. This is huge. We talked about this earlier, seek quality over quantity, just that alone will help you spend less, grab less, less impulsive buying.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:02
This is Season Five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because, we or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet, if we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views but never at either extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy Season Five of Where Ideas Launch; The Sustainable Innovation Podcast. Jamie Snell is the founder of Eco Crates of America and the Eco Mama podcast. Jamie lives in the upstate of South Carolina in the US. She's a mom of three, happily married and sharing her life passions, while putting them to good use for the greater good. She developed her footing by receiving a BA in business management and a master's degree in International Business from the University of Florida. And she enjoyed working many years with the Ritz Carlton in South Florida before pursuing her passion for holistic wellness as a buyer for the Whole Foods Market. After taking time off from her career to focus on her family, she put her energies into developing her own company, Eco Crates of America. This organisation provides a monthly subscription programme of carefully curated items for your home that are safe and non toxic, and eco friendly. Jamie, welcome to Where Ideas Launch.

Jamie Snell 2:53
Thank you so much, Katherine, I'm so happy to be here.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:56
It's really an honour to have you and it's an honour to see a business, like yours that has grown and scaled because I have a number of people who've wanted to start this type of idea but haven't quite caught on to the scaling part of this yet. So it's going to be really interesting to jump into all this with you. I'm really excited. Let's understand a bit about your background. I know you talked about your, your academics and where you worked before coming to sustainability, but tell us what brought you to this part of your journey.

Jamie Snell 3:24
My journey truly began when I became a mom. Before that I had an interest in sustainability, healthy nutrition, and took a holistic approach to living. But it wasn't really until my first child arrived, that these interests became a passion. So in all honesty, you could say I almost stumbled into the lifestyle. As a new mom, I wanted to stay home with our newborn, my husband relented and we had, we had to make great sacrifices and transitioning to a one family income. So in doing so, playing home more, we cooked more at home, or I should say I cooked more at home. I also began making homemade cleaning products, homemade personal care products, just learning the core ingredients of these things. And over time, I realised not only how much waste that I was no longer putting out, our family was no longer putting out but also the money that we were saving, and we felt better physically and emotionally. So that was like all these wins that came from it. And I so I kept it up. When our second child was born, I took it to the next level and I made everything from scratch from our home goods to our personal care. I mean bread, sauces, I mean all of our baby food. She was in cloth diapers and we had homoeopathic remedies for everything. I started learning about the food colouring that was in medicines and I just got really intentional about everything I brought in and did for our kids. So by the time the third child came along Now mind you, each one is 19 months apart. So while I'm still breastfeeding one I have another in diapers and then I finished breastfeeding, she's still in diapers and then I have a third, you know, so then I got two in diapers again. And it was just a whirlwind, it was really, there was very little time for myself much less to keep up all of the sustainable lifestyle that I had created for myself and our family. So I had to figure out a shift making everything wasn't sustainable. As I mentioned, with the time and energy that I had. So I had a choice, I could either burn out or I could seek balance. And thankfully, I chose balance, because who needs to burn out when you have three little kids at home? And at the time, I had a little bit of postpartum depression I didn't, you sometimes you don't know that until you look back. But anyway, what happened was, we've bought a new house, or we've actually bought our first house together when my son was about five months old, and he developed a staph infection on his upper thigh. Now he was in the cloth diapers that I had used on my second child and used all of them more of the general gender neutral diapers, no matter what we did, who we saw, this staph infection would not go away. It lingered for months. And you know, as a mom, I'm like, What did I do wrong? I'm freaking out. Well, one day, I just decided to test a theory or new home had well water. And that's how we washed our diapers in the washing machine with the well water, we didn't have a special separate pump, we didn't have city water. And we didn't have a special filter. And I realised, over time that it was the well water, what I was laundering his diapers with. So I switched him to conventional diapers at that time when I was doing the test. And then we stayed that way. But thankfully, by then, there were better options for disposable diapers, there were more biodegradable options. Of course, these natural brands cost a bit more. But my priorities at this time in my life were optimal health, minimal waste and proactive measures. So it was worth spending a little more on that for me and then doing without others things at the time. So then I continued this journey seeking practical solutions that met our comfort needs, but also had a minimal footprint in our everyday lives.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:51
It's interesting, because in your background, like before coming to motherhood, it didn't seem like you had a background in sustainability. So what was your epiphany moment when you decided to make it a business?

Jamie Snell 7:04
Along this journey, it's very rare for me to meet like a kindred soul that had a similar passion for clean ingredients and love to the earth. And the rare times that I did, we were instant friends. But it just, it was there weren't enough people for me to talk about these things. So the more I learned about eco friendly sustainability, I just had this desire to help everyone I knew, understand that there was a link between the daily products that we were using, the trash that we were accumulating, and our physical and environmental health like it all ties them together, it starts from the home, how we live our lives every single day of those little habits. But unfortunately, the eyes of my audience usually glazed over as I mentioned, like just not enough kindred souls in my circle, I just couldn't understand why others could not see how we were harming ourselves with the products we were using, the harmful ingredients in these products, and how their aftermath was also wreaking havoc on our forever home; Earth. Over time, I realised that it was too big of a picture for people to see, it was kind of an 'aha' moment like, I'm out here preaching and they can't see that big picture. So I started talking about little things I needed to bring it back home, I brought it back into my own house. And then I took it from my house to yours, to share my journey. And it's to encourage others how a healthy family begins with a healthy home, a home with fewer toxins equals a life with fewer chemicals. And that was more digestible. And my message was starting to be heard. And I finally felt like this mission that was inside of me, was coming to fulfilment. And I just picture like if every family made just one change for the better, that our Earth would have a greater chance of surviving, from COVID, that was very evident that Mother Earth can heal itself or can heal herself. She just needs time. All it really could take is one family to focus on making one change at a time. Some examples could be going plastic free for one month, switching to personal care products made without phalates or fragrances or even seeking more sustainable furnishings - buying secondhand Not everything has to be new, the demand for more caustic productions of goods would eventually shift from harmful toxic ingredients to sustainable practices or in toxin free solutions. So I have all this passion. I'm learning this knowledge, I'm starting to speak the language. The business evolved, because I know how hard making changes is, especially if you're a busy mom or you're working full time. So many of us get stuck in our comfort zones or we're too busy to learn new habits, especially when it comes to researching our products and finding different brands that we've never heard of before. Can we really trust them, was the quality worth it? So that is why I created Eco Crates of America.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:50
Yeah, I love that. A question on this because when I look at the metrics and the scores and results of where we are in terms of warming and everything else, you know, we've been talking about this, I'd say aggressively since 2015. Right? I mean, of course, the conversation has been going on for much longer, but aggressively this has been in the news all the time. You know, there's, there's climate change, there's climate, fear, eco anxiety, we've been talking about it for like seven years non stop, yet, we're still seeing things trending up. So what's not working in your view? What's what's the problem with the transition at the moment?

Jamie Snell 10:22
As far as sustainability transitions, I will be honest with you, I'm a dreamer. I often have very high expectations, and sometimes unrealistic expectations, I can't always tell the two apart, but I never stopped shooting for the moon. So I'm a big dreamer. And I just do the best I can every day, I would love to see more consumers shift to a quality over quantity mindset. And just to start there, just a small thing about quality versus quantity. Seek safer ingredients, and support small local businesses as much as possible. If enough individuals can make the shift, thent our economy can start to shift to strengthen and support itself, again, that are what I call sustainable at heart, they have a reason to make a clean product, or to do a service that benefits the earth and people they can lead in providing these consumers with what they want and need. So you don't have to go bare minimum, I am not a let's move out into the middle of the woods and live off the land. It sounds ideal. But that's just too much work for me. I like my creature comforts. So knowing the needs versus the wants, and then finding that happy medium, the less eco minded corporations and companies will need to scramble to improve their sustainability options.

Katherine Ann Byam 11:41
Really powerful stuff. And I like the dream. I mean, I think it's I think it's important to have to have these big goals and dreams because it pushes you it really pushes you to do more to do more than you ever thought you could so really appreciate that. From the perspective of measuring success, and this is a conversation I tend to have with all my guests around how we determine the metrics for success, how we determine if we're impacting, we're doing what we think we wanted to set out to do, what are your thoughts and reflections on success? And also, if you can share with us what surprised you on your journey as well.

Jamie Snell 12:15
I find one of the greatest successes is when I see and receive the excitement and support of like minded business owners and individuals that believe in my dreams, the surprises occur when how much joy I receive from the 'aha' moment of friends and customers, when they begin to see how sustainable they can be and think differently and understand the power. It's just one person and the vast difference they can make, even with a tiny change in habits.

Katherine Ann Byam 12:42
And what about challenges and obstacles? Like I totally know that every business does not start as a growing, thriving business. And I know that you mentioned about you know how successful you have, you have been in terms of growing this and getting this going. But what have been the obstacles and things that got in your way? And how did you overcome them?

Jamie Snell 13:02
So technically, I've been in business for a year and a half, but I've been selling boxes for maybe 14 months now. And one of my biggest obstacles was getting in front of the extensive, like an extensive base of ideal customers. And speaking the language that resonated with them. I've been on this journey so long, I see it more of as an eco friendly, sustainable journey. But busy mamas don't have time to think about the Earth, they are busy changing diapers and trying to get dinner on the table and wondering when the last time they had a full night's sleep is. But what they do want, is like the best for their kids, they want a healthy environment. If they knew about the chemicals, they'd probably be too scared to use anything ever again. So it's taking this approach of language that helps them see, entices them to want to learn a little bit more without being scared off. So learning that language of health, healthy home and healthy family versus eco friendly and sustainability. So making that shift so that I could be heard, it's what some people might call dog whistles, that the people that I've been trying to get to, they, they get it, they understand it because they do want that, they just didn't know what it was called. The other struggle. And I'm, this, I'm not alone in this, this is with every startup, is that, you know, finding the excess funding to go above and beyond inventory and operational cost. So it would be really nice to have the money to pay someone to help me so that I could focus on the growth part. And they can start doing the day to day functions of the business that I have established in the past year. Things like social media, customer service, so that I can get out there and you know, start communicating and I'm going to share here, this would be a really great time, I recently did a boot camp with my community and the city that I live in. And they were wonderful and it was very intensive the very first day we looked at the business we tried to find out where are my sore points like what am I missing and what should I be focusing on, and they talked about business to business and business to business is done quite a bit in the subscription box industry. And of course I wanted to do that, that was on on the backburner. That's something I would get to later once I had a bigger following and a larger stronghold and, you know, just more established, so to speak, so that they could see that I had something to offer. And they convinced me like, you don't need to wait. You already have so much to offer. There are so many companies out there that are, they're sustainably aligned, but they don't have time to do all that research on how to practice that in their everyday workplace and run their business. So why don't you reach out and see about corporate gifting or corporate bundling. And that very day they had me make phone calls, and I have two contracts already with corporate gifting, one with corporate gifting, and one with corporate bundling, aligning with these existing sustainable corporations, are, we align, like what we believe, what our goals are, they just happen to be doing something bigger scale, and I am doing something smaller scale, but we benefit from each other. So that is something that's like a, you would talk about the obstacles, but moving forward and talking to more people about those obstacles. That's something that entrepreneurs do, we don't talk about the problems enough, we need to be able to talk about the problems to work through them, because you never know who can help you on the other side, or who's gonna inspire you to do something maybe you're scared to do. And that is the pivot you needed to make for your business to start thriving.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:16
I think what, what happens, what tends to happen, we go online to find that support for our business. But often, you know, like, we have some service based entrepreneurs trying to help product based entrepreneurs, but the dynamics of the business are very different. And what we really need is, is you know, those business owners that are doing similar things to really share, to have that place that safe space to come and talk about the problems and work through it together as opposed to have someone pitch you something that you don't need. Right?

Jamie Snell 16:43
Exactly, exactly. So it's the connection in the community where you grow together, and you thrive together because you have that common goal with whatever your business may be. So I think community is critical when you're trying to overcome obstacles and challenges.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:55
Absolutely. So tell us about what's next for Eco Crates of America. And in fact, for you.

Jamie Snell 17:01
Well, as I said, I'm a dreamer. I like to have a big lofty goals. When I set out my business model, in the very beginning, I set out a goal that within five years time, that I would have 700 recurring monthly subscribers. This meant that I would be reaching 700 homes every single month, with products, home cleaning, personal care, developed relationships with these small businesses, helping them grow, shining the light on them for the goodness they are providing, I would also like to have accumulated at least $5,000 cash to give as an award to a budding ecoproenur, I have a 1% Give Back Programme, so 1% of all profits are set aside. And then I'd like to have that build enough to get to be able to help someone else get on their feet that wants to start a sustainable business. And then finally, I really enjoy working with people one on one, offering virtual coaching, you know, directly to individuals and families that they need a little hand holding, because God knows I do sometimes to, like starting something new, I don't always have the confidence to just do it, I need someone to hold my hand walk me through the first three steps. And then I've got it from there. So if I could be that service to someone in addition to, you know, I can lead them to the water, but sometimes they want me to help them crawl into the water to, so having the time to be able to do that to help them create a home with fewer toxins that don't really know where to start.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:25
Well, you know what I would like, you got to write this down because this is a service I would love. I would love someone to ask me to share my shopping list, and then figure out replacements for everything in my shopping list. That for me that would be an awesome service.

Jamie Snell 18:42
Because it takes so much time to go in and figure out which one's gonna work, which ones not. So if you really liked the benefits of this product, you're gonna like this one that has cleaner ingredients. Yeah, send me a copy of your list, and I'll see what I can figure out. I love it. I love it. That sounds like a challenge I would really enjoy.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:59
That's awesome. So tell us a bit about some tips. I know that everyone listening, you know, a lot of people who are listening to this podcast have already started their journey. And they're definitely already doing some things. But still Just give us some Lehman's tips about what we can start with how to how to improve our game in the sustainability space in terms of home products.

Jamie Snell 19:19
Absolutely, I would love to so first thing I'll say no matter how long you're on this journey, there's always more to learn. So never stop sharing with other people. But also have an open heart because you never know who might have a good idea that could be a game changer for you making like a little bit more simpler and still being sustainable not to say that I'm a guru and all of this but I can share some of the tips and tricks that I've learned along the way and that I share with other people that are pretty basic things but some of us just lose sight of it because it's so simple. So one thing could be ditching your body wash for bar soap, there's less plastic right there. Start eating at home more often, shop your local farmers market instead of the large chain stores because a lot If their produce if you look at the tags, they're coming from outside of the country, so shop the local farmers markets, but also eat seasonally because that's where you're gonna get your fresh produce, buy from frozen if you must have something that's not in season, not canned, eat less meat. Now I am, I'm definitely a meat eater. I'm not gonna pretend not to be and I would say if bacon wasn't a meat, I might be able to go vegetarian. But bacon does exist. So I don't know how to go about it.

Katherine Ann Byam 20:27
I totally get that. Yeah.

Jamie Snell 20:28
I don't need steak. But bacon. Oh, my goodness. So yeah, eat less processed foodss. I do, do uncured bacon. If that. If that saves anyone there from heart attack, seek organic foods when possible. EWG, I'm sure most most of your listeners know about them. But they had the clean 15 and the Dirty Dozen, put out a new list every year. And they tell you what if you're gonna, if you're limited on budget, and you can only get certain things organic, it'll tell you what's most important to get organic, use paper bags, or reusable bags instead of plastic. This one is really key for me, teach your children how to care for the earth as if it were a part of the family. Like when it's literally like, would you leave that in your grandma's living room? No, let's pick it up. Let's take it to the trash can. Let's take it with us. Just having that respect for the earth as much as they do for those they love really, really makes an impact. Yeah. And that leads into being an example for sustainable leading to others, especially children, because you're going to want them to pay it forward when it's their time to be the leaders for our country.

Katherine Ann Byam 21:28
I love this. Yeah,

Jamie Snell 21:29
Thank you. Just a couple more I have here avoid personal care and home cleaning products that contain, these are like my top four that I avoid at all costs, there's a big list that I have on my website called the 'no thank you' list that we strive to avoid. But these top four avoid fragrances, parabens, phthalates, and sulphates. sulphates are also called SLS or sodium lauryl sulphate This is huge. We talked about this earlier, seek quality over quantity, just that alone will help you spend less, grab less, less impulsive buying really does equal more money in the bank and a better Earth. So next time you do need to go to Target, skip that dollar, I think it's a $3 section now, skip by that and avoid the dollar store. Seek quality over quantity. Open more windows, fresh air is so important, our indoor air quality is two to five times worse than the outdoor air quality. And it's because we're stuffing the air, that our homes don't breathe anymore, everyting's made so efficiently, that we don't give it a chance, there's no way for air to escape and come back in. So we have to open the windows to get that fresh air. Reduce, reuse, recycle, repurpose, and refuse. So that's a big thing. Like we've talked about. You've mentioned in the last seven years how the conversation has gotten more prevalent with sustainability. It used to be the three R's. And I think it's technically it's like the seven R's now, but these are the five R's that I still like strive by: give up fast fashion, this can be hard for some people, especially if you like your fufu stuff, but let me tell you, if you just get a few articles that are very well made, you can still have a very nice wardrobe, you don't need to be buying things every time you go out. I have an aunt who literally, God bless her heart, but she loves to go to Walmart, and Target and the department store in the mall. And she just loves finding sales. And that's her hobby. And it kills me because she has more than she ever needs. And it's all fast fashion. Finally, I have here in my, on my list of things, tips and tricks is and this is this is the biggest, the biggest changer; know the companies that you're giving your money to, ask yourself are they align with what I believe? Are my values inline with their values? Know that you and only you as an individual have the power to vote with your dollar. And you work hard for that money. So I suggest you make it count.

Katherine Ann Byam 23:48
I love all of this stuff. And I don't want to challenge you. But I do want to put a challenge out there probably to everyone because I know what some people are going to think, depending on who they are, listening to this stuff. It's like, we've just heard of all the job losses that we've had across big tech, for example, you know, it was what Facebook one day, Amazon another day, you know, and they keep going on and they keep rolling on, Microsoft as well, etc. What can we do? Or how can we think about the world differently to make sure that even when we make these choices to support local etc, that starts creating some kind of havoc in the economy because people are looking away from the big players. How can we make sure that we're taking care of the people around us too, you know?

Jamie Snell 24:34
I have found as I said in the beginning, I was actually saving money when I started making everything myself, if you if you're not working you got a little bit more time on your hands, you can start asking yourself what your needs are versus your wants. So that shift and quality over quantity, and need and want can save you money right there. I took it up a notch in my personal endeavours and I only buy American made when possible. I believe in international trade. Don't get me wrong. I love computers. And television, you can't find electronics here like they make them there. But on the flip side, I can't find clothes here, I can't find food here, those are two basic needs, I don't have to buy stuff that is shipped from, you know, across the ocean, I can just focus on slow, small sustainable options here in my own backyard. And you can do the same for yours. And in doing so, when I chose to only buy American I literally limited so much of what I could buy, I no longer really go to the stores, I don't shop Target anymore. I didn't really like Walmart to begin with. But I don't go to Walmart, I don't need the grocery store still has limited options other than the basic food. But again, I tried to do the farmers markets, we have some local co-ops that we try to get most of our food from. And then there's, that I mean, there there are options out there that are less costly, to be honest with you. And if something, if you're looking at two different products, and one product is safe, and one is not. But this one looks like it's so much more money, I guarantee you the one that is cheap, is dumbed down with extra water or harmful ingredients that are either going to burn through the product a lot faster, or make you pay more for your health insurance in the long run. Because you're not being proactive to take care of your health. So there's, there's an investment in your future. But if you were to, let's say the generic lasts, with the not safe ingredients, it might last two, three weeks, where the quality one that's made with pure essential oils, and maybe it was a concentrate and you add your own water to it, your own safe water, then that could last two, three months. So there's an opportunity cost there. Do you want a cheap right now so you can get what you need and move on? Or do you want to think about slower movement, being proactive with your health, being proactive with your money, like what is the best for investment. And yeah, so try to limit your options by saying need versus want, and quality over quantity. And then seek those things that you can't live without and try and find a more sustainable option that is going to last you longer than the less expensive item that you normally would buy.

Katherine Ann Byam 27:00
That is so powerful. Jamie, you've been amazing. All of your advice and tips are great. And I cannot wait to share this episode with everyone. So let everyone know how they can get in touch with you.

Jamie Snell 27:13
Absolutely. So you have plenty of options. I'm on every platform, you can go to Jaime dot Snell that's ja i m e dot snell at Eco Crates of America.com. I also have a website Eco Crates of America. And we just opened our shop. So we have some surplus items, as well as items that I feel are just important to have around. And they might not have been in a previous crate. But they're available for, for the shop and we're slowly building the shop. So it's like one or two items added per day. So you can visit that at Eco Crates of America.com backslash shop or just go to the main page and click the shop button at the top. Let's see I'm on Facebook, I'm in LinkedIn, if you are a corporation and you're looking for some easy sustainable gifts for your employees, this holiday or year round, give me a call. I do some custom curating as well as duplicating boxes we've done in the past. So I'm on Instagram, I do have a YouTube channel, Pinterest, there's a little bit on Pinterest there. So Eco Crates of America is on all of those. So, you pick your favourite platform and you go see what I've been up to lately on that one.

Katherine Ann Byam 28:16
Fabulous. And I know that roughly 50% of my audience is in the US and the rest of the world. Is there something that you do that could support listeners who are all over the world?

Jamie Snell 28:26
I have a blog where I share information. And I also have a podcast now it's called eco mama podcast. And you can find me on Apple and Spotify, you can also go to eco mama podcast.com and see my latest episode and on that it's very simple, straightforward. Tuesday's is just a simple conversation about what this eco mom has been up to on her journey. Sometimes it's an interview with whether it's industry experts or just a mom who made one change, and the world was better for her. And then on Fridays, for all those that like to geek out over products, I do deep dives on the different ingredients that we tracked, that I strive to avoid as an individual, as a mom and also as a business owner. So on Fridays is when I do the deep dives into what fragrance is and where it's found what phalates are, what else it's known as. So those ingredients and the products that you need to be looking for them. And so that's every Friday, that's maybe five or 10 minute podcast.

Katherine Ann Byam 29:21
Thank you so much, Jamie, and it's been really a pleasure to meet you and to chat with you today. And wish you all the best.

Jamie Snell 29:27
Thank you so much, Katherine, this was wonderful. Thank you for having me on your show.

Katherine Ann Byam 29:35
This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new Women In Sustainable Business Awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion, or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation, you are more than welcome to join us, and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group, on Facebook; Woman In Sustainable Business, or follow the podcast; Where Ideas Launch, on Instagram to find out more.

About this Episode

Katie Skelton, founder of Little Green Duck, is a business consultant and strategist who helps impact-led entrepreneurs to untangle their ideas, manage projects and maximise their impact.

Katie works on a personalised basis, and will always get to the heart of the areas of support that her clients need, before suggesting a solution. 

She loves to discover innovative, forward-thinking businesses and connect with new people so please go and find her via the links in the show notes now.

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:00
So Jeff Bezos just announced that he's giving his fortune to charity. And somehow it did not have the same effect, as Patagonia announcing that they're setting up this Charitable Fund.

Katie Skelton 0:12
I kind of feel like that's the same as McDonald's announcing that they're giving all their profits to a vegan charity that doesn't balance each other out. Just because you're doing good in one place doesn't mean that that just eliminates all of the bad you have ever done. No, it's a totally different message, isn't it? And I think that that's where being very careful around the marketing that you're putting out there. And being very careful about not greenwashing is difficult, fine, you've got to change the underlying problem, because you're right. Patagonia was a fantastic example of a company that was already doing good, doing even more good. And I know, we all have to start somewhere. But I feel like Jeff Bezos probably could have started somewhere else.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:01
This is Season Five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because, we or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet, if we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views but never at either extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy Season Five of Where Ideas launch; The Sustainable Innovation Podcast. Katie Skelton, founder of Little Green Duck is a business consultant and strategist who helps impact lead entrepreneurs to untangle their ideas, manage projects and maximise their impact. Katie works on a personalised basis and will always get to the heart of the area of support that our clients need, before suggesting a solution. She loves to discover innovative, forward thinking businesses and connect with new people. So please go and find her via the links that I will share with you in the show. Katie, welcome to Where Ideas Launch. It's such a pleasure to host you on the programme.

Katie Skelton 2:38
Thank you so much for having me, it feels like it's been a long time coming.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:41
I know right, it's a pleasure to finally speak to you, one to one. And I know that we were on this panel together about a year ago, with four other people. And since then you've invited me for networking a few times, but I haven't actually made it. I think I wanted to be able to say that. That's why I didn't make it to the last one. But this is our first real conversation. So I'm really pleased to get stuck in and get into this.

Katie Skelton 3:05
Yeah, I'm really excited too.

Katherine Ann Byam 3:06
I had a noodle through your LinkedIn and your job history and saw that your background is deeply linked to account management, business development. And I was wondering a little bit about what these historic experiences have given you to help shape who you are today?

Katie Skelton 3:21
Yeah, sure I was this has only really come to me recently, quite recently. That the background that I have in sales and account management, it's all been about connecting people and making connections between people who might not necessarily connect with each other. So back in my days as a commercial manager in the broadcast industry, I used to be the, like the bridge between the technical and engineering teams and the client who were not necessarily technically minded, and try to translate those ideas from something that was very heavily, heavily technical, sometimes quite difficult to understand into something that you could sell is something that I've only just realised is a skill and something that I really love doing that I've brought into my my business now.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:13
Yeah, that's, that's really an important skill, particularly as we get into the eco space and eco businesses, because I think this is one of the areas that we more struggle with, because there's such a commercial focus to business development, fundamentally. And where the change and transition that we're going through in terms of eco businesses at the moment, there's less of a commercial focus and more of an impact focus and being able to combine those two things is a little bit tricky. So I think that your, your insight is really spot on and important for eco businesses. So let's talk a little bit about the Little Green Duck and how did this brand and the movement behind it come about?

Katie Skelton 4:54
Okay, so the name itself was actually just thought of by my two and a half year daughter at the time, I couldn't think of a business name, I actually used to write a blog that was all about vegan food, it was completely, and parenting, so it was completely different completely separate from what I'm doing now. And I said to my daughter, I'm starting up a what it was, at the time a copywriting business, she didn't know what that was, but I said, what should I call it? And she just said, Little Green Duck. And I said, Okay, and so it stuck. And now it's really nice, because she can actually read the words on the screen when she can see that I'm working on my business. So that's how the name came about. And then the actual, the ethos behind it. So as I said, I started as a copywriting business. And I started writing for broadcast companies, because that was my history. And then in 2019, we took our two children travelling around the world for nine months, so we sold everything we had, sold our house and took our children travelling. And halfway around that trip, actually, it was probably a bit longer in into the trip, I was sitting with some friends in New Zealand on New Year's Eve 2019 into 2020. So just before the world went crazy, and there was smoke coming out, we were on the coast, and there was smoke coming from the wildfires in Australia, and just making everything really eary, and really orange. And that was the point when I thought I've always cared about looking after our planet and doing whatever I can to protect the environment that we have for our children. But I don't think it really hit home to me that I could embed that in my business at that stage, and also how much I cared. And I just thought at that moment, when I saw that smoke, and I've got photos of my children kind of within that smoke on like little canoes in the water, I thought, I've got to focus on making some kind of impact with my business, I can't just kind of carry on going blindly, and just trying to make money and doing whatever I can, I've got to have some kind of passion behind it. So that was the moment when I decided I was going to work with businesses with some kind of impact at their heart.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:55
I totally get that. And it's funny because I think I'm going to say something that's probably not based on any fact, just on my feeling. I think New Zealand is a key transition place for many people. I was there in 2019, as well, I'd already known that I wanted to start a business with sustainable ethos. But when I got to New Zealand, and I saw all the geography and geology of that country, how well preserved it is, how they care for it. And I thought to myself, my goodness, like this could be anywhere, this and this could be everywhere, you know, and as I started to explore the whole thing about regenerative agriculture, you know, that's a big movement in New Zealand as well. And I started to realise, oh, my goodness, like there's so much more we can do. And when you see a pristine place, like an almost untouched, place. So you kind of get an appreciation for what we spoiled. And what we can do like how we can actually play a part in making this whole thing better. So like the fact that you tell the New Zealand Story, it's just it just hits me right right in my heart, because it really, that was an experience that really shifted things for me as well. So thank you fo sharing that.

Katie Skelton 8:05
It's a totally, totally magical place. And I completely agree. And the stark contrast, I live in the New Forest. And so again, absolutely beautiful area butt the difference in the level of respect people have for the place compared with somewhere like New Zealand is really, really obvious. You can drive along the roads in the New Forest and see McDonald's wrappers all over the place. And people have chucked stuff out their windows, and it just makes me really cross. But I think also part of that, that journey for me was sitting there and thinking, I'm contributing to this by taking my children travelling around the world and flying, we didn't take that many flights, we did a lot of overland travel, but we still flew. And that made me think I'm contributing to this. So now I need to do something to fix it as well. And I think that maybe I wouldn't have come to that realisation without being in that place. So maybe the trip was worth it. And the the impact that I had the negative impact that I had was worth it for the impact I'm now able to make now, I will never know. But I'm glad I had the realisation because what I do now I love.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:07
No, and that's a really, really important point because I believe that travel is arguably the most important way to make impact tangible. So for example, in 20, 2007 to 2012, I used to travel for work all the time, like I would literally be in a different country every month. And that experience. At times, I was absolutely flaunting and loving the life of travel and purchasing and buying stupid stuff. But I also met loads of different people from different cultures that made me understand the world in a way that I wouldn't have just sitting behind my desk in a corporate environment. And for me, it's like that's changed me, that's changed me forever. And I wish more people had that experience. The question is just how we do it right. So the flights cost a lot but can we do something else to make to give people this kind of experience, because I think you don't appreciate things the same way until you live it. And it's difficult to say, but it's just not the same reading it in a book or learning from a textbook, you really have to experience and that could even be travelling around your own country, because arguably, even in the UK, you move around here, and you see all different things that you can possibly see from the poverty to potentially well kept pristine areas to things that we're really not treating with with a level of respect they deserve. So I do, I do think travel's so important. But yes, we need to figure out a way to do it, where the cost isn't as significant for the planet. Tough one. So there are many coaches and communities offering solutions for business development for SMEs. I mean, my goodness on LinkedIn, I probably get five messages at least a day, but far fewer offering that support with impact in mind. So what are your thoughts on the pace of change in SMEs at the moment in terms of appreciating and accommodating ESG principles in what they do? And what changes would you like to see in the practices around marketing, linked to growth?

Katie Skelton 11:09
I feel like I was saying to you before we started recording today, but I feel like I live in a bit of an echo chamber when it comes to social media and the businesses that I'm in contact with. So if I was looking solely at my little world and my social media community, it gives me so much hope that people are putting impact first people are really leading with the impact that they want to make, and the businesses I work with, they will when they set goals will sit down and we'll set a 12, 3, 6, 12 month plan. And their impact is part of their goals. It's not just a oh well, if we make this much money, we can make this much impact. It's I want to make this much impact. And almost we need this much money to do it. But the impact is the kind of thing that's leading the goal. And so that makes me feel really heartened and really hopeful. However, I know that when you come outside of that little impact led business bubble, which is still relatively small, even though the sustainability industry is growing massively, I still think there are a lot of businesses out there who are just thinking profit and thinking that sustainability and ESG is a bit of an inconvenience, or, at best a box ticking exercise. And I'd really like to see a lot more businesses leading with the impact they're making. So when they're sharing successes, sharing impact related successes, rather than we've won this customer or we were delighted to announce this partnership or this, this growth has happened showing their growth in their their impact and what they're doing to give back to the world really needs to kind of balance out those other it's it's important to celebrate your successes and for not financial success is important too, because obviously, the more money you make, the more money you can put into the goods that you want to make. But I would like to see in terms of the marketing question you asked, people really leading with the impact that they're making.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:03
I want to throw a spanner in the works here. So I don't know if, well I'm sure you saw it. So Jeff Bezos just announced that he's giving his fortune to charity. And somehow it did not have the same effect as Patagonia announcing that they're setting up this Charitable Fund. What are your thoughts on that?

Katie Skelton 13:21
Yeah, I kind of feel like that's the same as McDonald's announcing that they're giving all their profits to a vegan charity, like, kill billions of chickens, save some other animals elsewhere, like that doesn't balance each other out. Just because you're doing good in one place doesn't mean that that just eliminates all of the bad you have ever done. So, no, it's it's a totally different message, isn't it? And I think that that's where being very careful around the marketing that you're putting out there. And being very careful about not greenwashing is difficult, because it's really important, because you can't just go okay, well, I've made all this money off being really, really unethical. But if I give it all to charity, then that makes everything fine. You've got to change the underlying problem before you then go forward and go right now. I'm gonna go do good with it. Because you're right. Patagonia was a fantastic example of a company that was already doing good, doing even more good. And I know we all have to start somewhere, but I feel like Jeff Bezos probably could have started somewhere else.

Katherine Ann Byam 14:31
Absolutely. So one of my friends wrote a comment on a post that was sharing about what Jeff was doing, seeing if he could just pay his taxes, you know?

Katie Skelton 14:39
Yeah. Start with the basics that everyone does, then give all your money to charity.

Katherine Ann Byam 14:45
It's really it's really hilarious. Sometimes when I when I read the scroll of green washing that's happening. Let's talk about the success and achievements of Little Green Duck for a moment. How do you measure success? And what has surprised you in your journey over the past four years?

Katie Skelton 15:01
How do I measure success? I, I think I measure success through the impact that I'm able to help other people make. However, I don't really measure that I just carry on doing what I'm doing and hoping that it's like, I see that I'm helping people, I see that things are working, I see how my work supports the good work that other people are doing. There's always an underlying feeling that I should be doing more. And I think we probably all have that, I think we all feel a bit like, this isn't enough, I always need to be striving to do a bit more. But the impact that I'm able to make and that other people are able to make as a result of my work is important. And also, just freedom and flexibility is success to me. So my ultimate aim is to be able to take the school holidays off with my children, because they're only, they're seven and five at the moment, they're only going to be this small and want to spend time with me in the summer holidays for a few more years. And I don't want to be working all hours of the day when I could be spending time with them. So actually, my measure of success at the moment is getting to a point where I can spend as much time with them as possible over the next few years. And then I think it will probably change and evolve, as it always does. Initially, my measure of success was survival, just making enough money to survive.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:25
Yeah, I totally get that. And it's funny because the more stories I read now, coming up with these lines about why so many women are working as consultants or starting businesses online, and it's, it's about this freedom, right? It's about the sort of restrictive and oppressive, sometimes, feel of the corporate space, compared to what you can create on your own and the value you can create on your own, relative to working for someone else. And, you know, it's like this. I remember before I started, so I started looking for jobs again, around August. And before I started looking for jobs, I was starting to think, oh, maybe the corporate world has really changed. You know, the pandemic has really changed how people have an outlook on life. And, you know, those, those employees who've been there have actually managed to change the culture, this is going to be great going back to work. It's going to be awesome. But actually my first interview, I suggested that I wanted to continue podcasting. And that company said that they couldn't afford doing an 80% role. And I was like, well, that's interesting, because I didn't ask you for an 80% role. I basically asked for time to do my podcasts, but that I needed the flexibility to still do your hours. And it's really interesting to see how different companies try to sell you that they're more inclusive. But once you skim the surface of it, it means absolutely nothing. And I think that, that's so important for all of us. And it's going to disrupt for sure, I think the more climate anxiety builds, and the more people recognise what they have to lose, the more this is going to become an issue for companies. No?

Katie Skelton 18:04
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think there's a shift going on, I was speaking to the deputy head at my children's school a few weeks ago. And he was saying he really wants to embed a culture in the School of people actually starting their own businesses and not just blindly going into the world of work that we all went into. Because that's just the path everybody took, wanting to make them think about enterprise and make them think about doing something that they really care about. And going back to measures of success. That's another one of my measures of success, I really want to show my children that there's another way they don't have to just go through school and go to university, then get a job. And then 15 years later realise that if, if they have children, or if they want to travel or whatever, they're then stuck in that situation without thinking now I need to build up my own business. What if at 16, all of these children come out of school and build impact led, passion led, flexible businesses that work for them and make a difference? Imagine a whole generation doing that. So hopefully, just by doing what I'm doing, and my husband's doing the same, he runs his own business, so our children see the the ups and downs, there are definite, well actually no, there are definite downs of running your own business. But I'd never go back now. And I really want to show my children there's another way.

Katherine Ann Byam 19:27
Yeah, it's interesting. I've had a lot of young people come onto the podcast to talk to me about what they're doing like 22, 23 years old, never been to the corporate space never worked in the way that we have. And basically starting up and building empires online. And this is so important. It's really, really a new twist and an important shift, I think, for what work will become and what the world will become. So long may it continue, hopefully. Yes. So every small business faces some challenges and we've started to talk a bit about that, particularly in these economic times, what challenges are you facing? And what are you doing to sort of recession proof your business at this time? And those of your clients at the moment?

Katie Skelton 20:11
Okay, so you've asked this question that really good time, because back in September, I realised that what I was offering to people was too restrictive. I was offering consultancy and mentoring, specifically around online visibility of people's businesses. And I soon realised after having lots of conversations with people, it wasn't what everybody needed. And it was making me frustrated that I was almost having to convince people, this is what you need, that I'm the person to do it, and please part with your money. And I thought, I wonder if there's another way, I wonder if and also, it was frustrating for me. But I've got lots of other skills. It's not, I'm not just, I don't just know about marketing. I don't just now about WordPress websites, I don't just know about various other things. I've got lots of stuff that I know about, and loads of things I'm passionate about. And I thought, how can I bring all of this to my clients, rather than just the bit that I think that I should be doing, because everybody says you need to niche you need to offer one thing, you need to have one product and scale it and all of that advice for online business owners that is out there and is still out there. So I I scaled everything back, I ditched everything. And I just focused on speaking to people about what their actual challenges are. So connecting with startups in the sustainability and social impact space, having a conversation with their founders and saying, look, what are you struggling with right now. And they'll list four or five things. And I'll say, okay, there's three of those that I can help you with, let's work out a plan to move forward with that. And I think that really helps, helps people to know that they're spending their money on, they don't just have to choose one thing, they can bring someone in who's the word generalist is used quite a lot, and I think sometimes it's used in a negative way, because if you're not, if you're a generalist, you're not a specialist. But actually, I think we might need some more generalists in the world at the moment, some people who can go right, I can help you with a few things. Like, let me hold your hand and support you with more than one of these challenges. Because then it becomes easier for people to justify spending the money, it makes more of a difference. It helps me because I feel fulfilled and energised by the work I'm doing because it's so varied. So the challenge that I originally had was trying to conform to what the world expected from an online business owner. And the way I'm recession proofing my business is by giving people what they need, rather than trying to tell them what they need.

Katherine Ann Byam 22:48
That's awesome, really, really an important message for a lot of people starting out today. And we've all been there and like you, I am like the queen of generalism's I have done like finance, supply chain, accounting, audit, and ESG. And all of these things. And now like marketing my business for so many years, I know how to do that, too. And it's like, it's really difficult at times to succinctly sell that message. So I remember I had a guest on my podcast, he's a learning and development person. And he was saying that, you know, brain plasticity, kind of it continues all your life, but it tends to reduce the older that you get. And I remember thinking, I don't think that I feel like I could learn less, I still feel like I could learn at the same rate in some ways. The problem is it just gets harder and harder to sell, that you're learning and building your skills this much. So it's really interesting what you say. And I think, I think you're right, depending on the niche of client, it's not necessarily a niche of what you offer, but it's a niche of the clientele. And that clientele niche, you know, needs more generalists because they can't afford to hire six different specialists. So they appreciate someone to come in with a broader set of knowledge so that they really just kill two birds with one stone as they say.

Katie Skelton 24:05
Yes, yeah, exactly.

Katherine Ann Byam 24:07
It's a really, a really important message, I think for a lot of business owners. So let's move to big hairy goals. So what's next for Little Green Duck? And what can we expect to see from you in the next two years or so?

Katie Skelton 24:18
So what's next for Little Green Duck? So firstly, as I alluded to, before, I really want to get to the point where I'm taking the summer off next year, I want to have built a structure around my business and placed my projects in a way that I can spend the entire summer with my children and not have to think about work. That will probably mean having somebody who's kind of keeping things ticking over for me, but that's my, my one of my goals. My next goal and that's more for the next rather than, than for the next two years, for the next three to six months; is working on making my business as inclusive and accessible as I can because I, even though I think this about all aspects of my business, I know that I can be doing more every time I'm in a networking setting, or every time I'm writing copy, or every time I look at the kind of makeup of my audience, I think there's definitely more I can be doing here. And I've blindly been going through, not doing enough. And so that is my focus for the next six months. And luckily, I've connected with someone who's an amazing DEI consultant, who I'm doing a half day workshop next year, next week even, with where I'm going to set some really big goals for actually getting that out there. And then my third thing is kind of tied in with that, and just talking more about what I'm passionate about and what I care about, because I think that I'm still a little bit scared to put my opinions out there and to put how passionately I feel about things out into the world. So that feels like the scariest one. I think just being more, even though I'm really comfortable being myself in my business, I'm still holding back some of my opinions, because I think I'm worried about what's going to come back, even though most of the time when I do it, nothing negative comes back out of it at all. It's all positive. And it's all, it's all driving the change that I want to, but it's still scary.

Katherine Ann Byam 26:11
I understand that. And look, this is part of why we do these goals, right? It's we need to be scared a little, I think to well, at least that's how I get motivated at times. But what are some of the common struggles your clients have? And what tips would you give to my listeners who may be facing similar struggles.

Katie Skelton 26:30
A lot of people come to me, because they have an entrepreneurial nature, they have very, very full brains. So even if they know exactly what their business is, and exactly what they do, and exactly how to scale it, and what they need to do over the next 12 months to build what they want to build, they've got other ideas, they've got, oh, I could do this, or I could add that, or I could start this other business, or I could start a podcast, or I should be doing this. And a lot of people come to me really overwhelmed with all of those ideas just going, I just need to focus on the things that I need to focus on and get rid of some of that stuff. And my tip for reducing that is to try and get it all out, get it all out onto paper, all out onto if you use a project management tool or something like that, write all of your ideas down. But then really intentionally let go of some of it for a certain amount of time. So if you've got three ideas of things that you would like to do, at some point in the next three to five years, tell yourself, you're going to let go of them until next year, rather than having it buzzing around in your mind going; when I get the time, that is the thing that I'm going to do. Say rather than going okay, this is my to do list, this is my, what I'm not going to do list, I'm going to let go of those things. And if it helps put it out of the way, so on my, I use Asana for my project management, and I have my daily to do list and my weekly to do list. And then all the stuff I want to do in future is way off the screen. So I have to really scroll to go and find it. So it doesn't distract me. So I definitely say get everything out of your head and then commit to not doing some stuff.

Katherine Ann Byam 28:10
Yeah, powerful. Wonderful. So I think this has been a really illuminating session. Thank you for sharing your journey and how you developed your business and your ideas. I think this will be really useful for a lot of people listening. Let me listeners know how they can get in touch with you.

Katie Skelton 28:26
Okay, so in terms of social media, I'm most active on LinkedIn. So if you either search for Little Green Duck or Katie Skelton, I should pop up I've got a little plant after my name just so you can spot me amongst the other Katie Skeletons, or my website is little green duck.co.uk

Katherine Ann Byam 28:44
Perfect. Thank you so much, Katie, for joining us today.

Katie Skelton 28:48
Thank you for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 28:52
This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new Women In Sustainable Business Awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion, or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation, you are more than welcome to join us, and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group, on Facebook; Woman In Sustainable Business, or follow the podcast; Where Ideas Launch, on Instagram to find out more.

About this Episode

Irete Hamdani is a female solopreneur and founder of askBelynda, a greentech startup helping reduce our carbon footprint. askBelynda offers a Google Chrome extension that recommends sustainable products to consumers while they’re shopping online. She has a Computer Science MSc. with honours from Tel Aviv University and is an AWS Certified Associate Developer and Solution Architect. Irete uses her 25 years of tech experience to develop askBelynda. She believes in a greener future with the expansion of sustainable consumer goods. Irete resides in Denver, CO, with her husband and two daughters.

Episode Transcript

Irete Hamdani 0:00
So what I've done initially is develop a Google Chrome extension that consumers can download for free. And then when they're shopping on Amazon, it pops up and suggests sustainable alternatives. So that goes back to making it as easy as possible for them to be able to shop while they're on Amazon.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:17
What would you do with funding now? What's your top priority,

Irete Hamdani 0:20
Still marketing, obviously, so I invent, investing, my work within my budget, but if I had backing, I would invest a lot more. And I also would grow my team, I'd have a product manager, I'd have a development team, obviously a marketing full time person. So if you know when funding comes, that's when it's gonna go to towards growing the product, growing the vetting, growing, the, the marketing and obviously growing the target base and the revenue.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:53
This is Season Five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because, we or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet, if we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views but never at either extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy Season Five of Where Ideas launch; The Sustainable Innovation Podcast. Today, my guest is Irete Hamdani, she's a female solopreneur and founder of askBelynda, a green tech startup helping reduce our carbon footprint askBelynda offers a Google Chrome extension that recommends sustainable products to consumers while they're shopping online. She has a computer science MSC with honours from Tel Aviv University and is an AWS Certified Associate developer and solution architect. Irete uses her 25 years of Tech experience to develop askBelynda she believes in a greener future with the expansion of sustainable consumer goods. Irete welcome to Where Ideas launch.

Irete Hamdani 2:29
Hi, thanks for having me here.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:31
Really great to have you. I had a bit of a look at your background. And I found it so fascinating what you're doing. Tell us a bit about how you came to technology as a career, and why sustainability is so important to you?

Irete Hamdani 2:43
Both my parents come from computer science backgrounds, and both have master's degrees in computer science. And it was kind of like from third grade that it was inevitable that I would be in computer science as well. You know, I have kind of an analytic type of thinking. So I had a very long career at a large corporation, and there I started out as developer, later on and went into pre-sales as a solution architect, and in the last past years, in addition to that and parallel to that, I have become growingly aware of the environment, of our impact and you know, living in Denver, you see the Amazon trucks pass your house, the FedEx, that you get every day, you see the boxes pile up on your doorstep, on on your neighbours. And you know, it's so easy. But on the other hand, it kind of masks, what goes on behind the scenes, where are these products coming from? Who's manufacturing them? What are their manufacturing processes, their shipping, how they treat their employees. So all of these things kind of, I started to look at, and I found that it's not that easy to find reliably sustainable products, there's a lot of what's called greenwashing out there with companies, large corporations giving tonnes of slogans, but you're not really sure if that's reliable or not. And so I started doing the research and I was talking to people around me and I realised that they would benefit from a product that would give them these answers immediately. So that's kind of how I started up with askBelynda, I did a lot of research, talked to a lot of people, and found that the best solution would be for them to keep buying things on Amazon. But to get the information while they're shopping on Amazon, make it really super easy for them to understand what sustainable products are out there, why they're considered sustainable. So all the information on the values behind the companies and their certifications is provided to the consumer while they're shopping on Amazon, and super easy to just click on a product and add it to cart and buy it instead of a less sustainable product.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:56
Was this easy to develop?

Irete Hamdani 4:58
So I come from a programmers background. But things have changed since that 15 years ago when I was a computer programmer. So it took a little bit of getting up to speed. But you know, the basics are still there. So I would say, I enjoy the development a lot, and it hasn't been too difficult.

Katherine Ann Byam 5:16
How does your solution compare to others on the market, for example, sites dedicated to sustainable product offerings that have registered their products and solutions with the site owners? For example? How does it compare what makes your your offer easier?

Irete Hamdani 5:30
So what I've done initially is develop a Google Chrome extension that consumers can download for free. And then when they're shopping on Amazon, it pops up in suggest sustainable alternatives. So that goes back to making it as easy as possible for them to be able to shop while they're on Amazon. Now, there are many curated storefronts, marketplaces out there, and I shop from some of them. But the average consumer wants to get everything at the same place wants to be able to track it, Amazon is so much easier. These websites offer comparable solutions. It's not the same target audience, my target audience would prefer to buy everything they need on Amazon and have it shipped together. And so that's why my solution is targeted to that.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:16
That's really interesting. I like the idea of this because it's definitely frustrating. I know many brands who've started a dedicated site so that you can really support sustainable brands, but they don't get the traffic, because the traffic is going to Amazon. So what your solution is doing really makes so much sense. How do you measure your success at present, and what kind of surprised you the most about the process of developing askBelynda?

Irete Hamdani 6:41
So obviously, the success is, the more customers that download the extension and use it and are happy with it. And it leads them to reducing our carbon footprint by buying sustainable products. But better. That's, that's the ultimate success. A note on that is that I, the types of products that I'm covering are necessity products, or personal care products or cleaning products, basic clothing, I'm not promoting consumerism, I'm not promoting, you know, going out and buying more and more, it's the basics that typically people will buy anyway. So preferably, they buy a sustainable product while they're shopping. Now, with regards to what surprised me, I'm on this journey, especially since January this year. And I've been reaching out to so many different startup founders and CEOs. And what is really amazing is the amount of people out there that want to help. It's very humbling and very, you know, just eye opening, how much help is out there? How much I think consult with people get their support, get their advice. That's something that's been really awesome on this journey.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:52
Yeah, that's cool. And I do feel as if this community is different. If they think back to other experiences I've had sort of, you know, tangentially to startups since 2016, when I completed my MBA, it's, this is a very different community. So people are really willing to give you a hand. So many people have volunteered, for example, to support some of the projects that I'm working on for next year. And this is really inspiring that people really give generously to a cause that they believe in. And, you know, everyone does this stuff for their own reasons. But it's, it's really good that we can still have that. And, you know, when you look at some of the solutions being offered today, like I've looked at what some of the communities in New Zealand are doing, like having their own local currency to encourage people to buy local and stuff like this. These are really important sort of ways to to reimagine commerce and reimagine capitalism.

Irete Hamdani 8:50
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.

Katherine Ann Byam 8:51
What sort of challenges and obstacles have you faced?

Irete Hamdani 8:55
So I come from a tech background, so I'm doing the tech, and I know a little bit about product management, so I'm doing kind of that, where I don't have a lot of skills with marketing. So I initially had a marketing consultant, and then I moved to a marketing agency. And, you know, my budget is limited because I'm still bootstrapping this on my own. And I found that just the dedication and you know, the commitment, the passion is not there when it's, you know, it's high with me, okay, so, so right now, I've kind of left those organisations, those agencies and consultants and I'm trying to kind of run it on my own with, with specific people that have specific expertise, like I just started with a social media manager, but I'm kind of stepping up and learning about Google ads and Facebook ads, and I'm doing the marketing now on my own until it gets to a certain point where I feel I can outsource it to others. But the challenge is, is marketing, the challenge is getting to the consumers that it's relevant for them. So, for them to Download it, you know, here's like to grow and, and provide the solution to more and more people. So getting out to them is important.

Katherine Ann Byam 10:08
So let me ask you something when it comes to to deciding to bootstrap, as opposed to, let's say, getting angel or VC funding, what made that decision for you?

Irete Hamdani 10:18
When I started out in January, there was a lot of money out there, and VCs and Angel investors were handing it out, it seems like without a lot of due diligence, but by the time I came around to thinking of reaching out to angel investors, the market changed, and it's harder now, I'm not opposed to getting funding, I just believe that the more customer traction I get, the more valuable the startup is, the easier it would be for me to raise funding. So for now, as long as I have the budget, I'm running on my own.

Katherine Ann Byam 10:48
And about that. So what would you do with funding now? What's your top priority?

Irete Hamdani 10:53
Still marketing, obviously, so I invent, investing, you know, my work within my budget, but if I had backing, I would invest a lot more. And I also would grow my team, I'd have a product manager, I'd have a development team, obviously a marketing full time person. So if, you know when funding comes, that's what it's gonna go towards growing the product, growing the vetting, growing, the, the marketing and obviously growing the target base and the revenue.

Katherine Ann Byam 11:22
And I'm gonna ask another question, sorry, I'm probing so much. But I find this very interesting, especially for my listeners, who also business owners. But have you considered, for example, first dedicating what you were doing to the Denver area, like just really tapping into Denver space and seeing what that brings? Or is that too soft to target for you at this point?

Irete Hamdani 11:43
So, in general, on my journey here, I've become fearless. So I, I'm up for any challenge. And so I did spend a few kind of targeted, focused weeks, just hanging out at different kinds of WeWork type places. And I just approached everyone there and talk to them about askBelynda and shareed it with them. I went to a TEDx event and talked to a whole bunch of people there, outside that were mingling and shared it with them. So that's kind of how I reached out to the community in Denver. And I've gotten great feedback, and they kind of feel like they're involved in the process. So they also give me kind of their wish list of what features they want me to add. So, so absolutely, yes. But marketing wise, I'm targeting American population, people who care about the environment. Typically, it's young, young parents, to young kids that care about the health of their, you know, and the safety of their kids and the environment. So just targeting Denver, I mean, there's a lot of population in Denver, you also see a lot of amazing startup, sustainable startups coming from Denver. But the target audience is broader than just the local Denver community.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:01
Yeah. I love your tenacity as well and going after it. What's next in your growth or development for the app? And what would you like to bring, other features, etc, that you'd like to bring to customers?

Irete Hamdani 13:14
So what I really want to set up and I'm working towards this is personalisation. So sustainability means different things to different people. Some don't want to buy anything that has plastic in it. Some are, you know, avoiding anything that has in any part of its supply chain cruelty to animals. So the data is already there. But I want to expose it in a way, I want to create customer profiles where you can pick and choose which criteria are important to you. And then we'll filter the products based on that. So that's kind of in the works right now. But it will take a few more months to be released. If you're asking beyond that. So you know, right now, it's a Google Chrome extension. It works on Amazon, but the plans are to expand beyond Amazon, Target, Walmart, Google search, and beyond just being an extension. So yeah, there's a lot of plans.

Katherine Ann Byam 14:04
That sounds super exciting. I feel really thrilled to actually have you on the show and learn more about it. I wanted to ask another thing. So have you considered stuff like potentially having affiliates so people with huge communities, for example, to help support your brand?

Irete Hamdani 14:21
And now you're asking they would get a percentage of the revenue because they're, they're supporting and promoting it with their communities? Is that what you mean by...

Katherine Ann Byam 14:31
Yes Something like this. Yes.

Irete Hamdani 14:32
Um, it's not something on the radar immediately. But that's not to say that I won't get there at some point. In general affiliate marketing, so my revenue model is based on amazon affiliate, but a lot of companies, a lot of companies that I'm promoting have affiliate programmes of their own. And so when I expand beyond Amazon, I will be connecting to them on their affiliate programmes.

Katherine Ann Byam 14:55
Yeah, that makes sense. So, can you give my listeners who are business owners an idea of how you check and vet companies for your service.

Irete Hamdani 15:05
Yes, it's a very thorough process, it takes some time, we have, so I have a sustainability expert that I consult with. And together, we put together a list, very long list of criteria that looks at many different aspects. It's kind of beyond sustainability. You know, in the core, its manufacturing processes, shipping processes, ingredients, where the, where is if it's local, in the US, the manufacturing plants are outside, and also how committed the companies are to diversity and inclusion. What are they doing with their employees, how fair are they treating them? So it's a very broad list of criteria. And now I'm outsourcing it, so I have a few people on my team that are vetting company after company, and then I have a process that automatically pulls the products of those companies and puts them in my database.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:03
Yeah. And have you considered doing Impact Reporting for what you're actually doing already? So just to really embed the principles of sustainability into your business offer as well? Are you doing that sort of Impact Reporting?

Irete Hamdani 16:18
I have connected with an organisation that, you know, I'm really, really small operation right now. But I have connected with an organisation that calculates the carbon footprint of you know, my home office computer, I don't travel a lot. So it's very basic. And I put dollars towards a forestation project to kind of offset that. Beyond that, I think it's a little premature for, you know, in depth recording, because like I said, I'm still a very small operation.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:46
And what about the sort of downstream So looking at there's a stage of Impact Reporting, that takes into consideration the alternative that a consumer might have chosen? So for example, because they've actually purchased your, purchased something from your service, they've avoided purchasing something from more damaging service. And, you know, people do comparisons on this sort of thing to like, what do you, what pain are you avoiding for the planet as well, right. So I think this whole space of Impact Reporting is really fascinating. It's growing, it's, there's a lot more thought being put into now. And there's a lot more that you can squeeze out of even your digital business, because your digital business potentially has huge forward impact, you know, in terms in terms of the rest of the ecosystem that you're impacting on. So there's a lot of potential there, though. Don't Don't underestimate that.

Irete Hamdani 17:44
Yeah, no, I've, it's definitely something to look into. Thank thank you for that.

Katherine Ann Byam 17:47
So how can my listeners get involved with this? How can they access askBelynda? What do they what can they expect when they're using the service? Let us know how it how it goes.

Irete Hamdani 17:59
So beyond the basics, you know, we have an Instagram group, a Facebook group. And there's also a LinkedIn group, but beyond the basic social, obviously downloading the extension, and I'll share with you the link that they can click on. So you download it once it's free, it takes seconds. And then whenever you're on Amazon, if I have something to recommend it pops up, it gives you all the suggestions, lists all the criteria by which this product was selected to be in the recommended product. You can you can see the image, you can click on it, you can click on the link, you can add it to cart. It's very easy, seamless within Amazon. So, and we have our email on the on the listing. So if anyone downloads it and has any feedback, I'd love to hear it. We're always improving based on our customer feedback. So yes, so the more downloads the better and feedback always welcome.

Katherine Ann Byam 18:56
Thank you so much. Irete for sharing askBelynda with us. And really we're rooting for your success. Thank you for joining us.

Irete Hamdani 19:04
Thank you so much, it was a pleasure.

Katherine Ann Byam 19:09
This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new Women In Sustainable Business Awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion, or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation, you are more than welcome to join us, and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group, on Facebook; Woman In Sustainable Business, or follow the podcast; Where Ideas Launch, on Instagram to find out more.

About this Episode

Tara Pigott is a freelance Graphic & Brand Designer. She helps sustainable and positive impact businesses visually communicate their mission, values, and messages through intentional branding and design. Her mission is to be able to help such businesses create strong visual presences so that they can powerfully speak to their target audiences and make a greater impact in the world. Outside of work, she is a competitive powerlifter, so spends many hours in the gym lifting heavy weights.

Free Guide: Building a Brand to Increase Your Impact

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:01
One of the things I most love about interviewing youth on this podcast is the absolute idealism and incredible beauty of theie thinking processes. Listen to this comment that my next guest Tara has made.

Tara Pigott 0:14
success isn't necessarily a numerical value or tangible thing that I can quantify. It more so speaks to a feeling and sense of satisfaction within I'd measure success in how fulfilled I feel, how happy and confident I am, but also how much value I've provided people with and how much change I've helped to bring about through design. Yeah, I think it's in a way dangerous to chase numerical goals and indicators of success, because ultimately, we'll never be satisfied. And we'll always be chasing more and getting carried away with the data. So that's why I see success as more an overall fulfilment, satisfaction.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:59
Listen to this episode now. This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because, we or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet, if we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views but never at either extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy Season Five of Where Ideas launch; The Sustainable Innovation Podcast.. Tara Pigott is a freelance graphic and brand designer, she helps sustainable and positive impact businesses visually communicate their missions, values and messages through intentional branding and design. Her mission is to be able to help such businesses create strong visual presences, so that they can powerfully speak to their target audiences and make a greater impact in the world. Outside of work. She's a competitive powerlifter. So spends many hours in the gym, lifting heavy weights, Tara, welcome to Where Ideas Launch.

Tara Pigott 2:35
Hi, thank you for having me, it's a pleasure to be here.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:38
Really great to have you. Getting into your background, I absolutely love it, when I get to meet and work with young talent like yourself, I've been digging through your social profiles to learn more about you. And I discovered that you actually are trained in sustainable development in your degree from Warwick University. What encouraged you to choose this is a first degree and what brought you to this commitment to purpose?

Tara Pigott 3:04
Yeah, so it all started from quite a young age, to be honest, like growing up as a child, I was always concerned about the environment. And a story that I remember is that there's a stage in primary school where I actually collected empty, crisp packets from other children after they had their lunch and made them into this sort of abstract art, art piece to stop them from going to waste. So I would say it was quite emotionally affected when seeing you know, the state of the world and how it was deteriorating. And I noticed as well that this seemed to affect me more than it did like my family members and peers. And at the, at the time, it couldn't really understand why I kind of had trouble understanding why these people didn't care about these issues. So I was always quite passionate. So fast forward a few years to when I was applying to university, I knew I loved studying geography, and learning about the world and different cultures and countries. So I thought that this is what I'd study at university. And it was in looking for that geography degree that I just stumbled across a degree called Global Sustainable Development at the University of Warwick. And it was, yeah, like, immediately, I knew that this was the degree for me and what I wanted to study. So yeah, I guess in order to answer your question, there wasn't really a defining moment in my life where I made, you know, a commitment to purpose as such. It was just a really strong feeling and conviction from a young age. I knew I wanted to be part of the solution, and do all that I could to drive positive change.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:43
That's really, really encouraging. And it's interesting because I see young people today as having sort of, you know, obviously, I can't sum everyone up into two buckets, but they're kind of two paths, right? So there's the path of let's really save the planet: come on, what are you doing to our futures, let's make a difference. And then there's the path of, well, hey, I can actually be this mega influencer and make a lot of money. So, so I see these two things as being kind of what's in the public eye, let's, let's call it that you have the Greta's, and then you have the Tik Tok influencer. And your formal uni training doesn't appear to include graphic design. So what made you choose this as a vehicle to kind of deliver your change, your idea of change?

Tara Pigott 5:29
Yeah, I didn't study graphic design at university. Although it was at university where I started getting into design, I found myself designing social media posts and social action campaigns for the clubs and societies that I was a part of at the time. And it was through doing that, that I kind of just fell in love with design, it really provided me with an escape from reading, all the long, boring articles that was necessary for my degree. And I found myself becoming such a perfectionist over the designs that I was creating and spending far too many hours on them, making sure that, you know, I was truly happy with them. So it was doing that where I started to understand the importance of graphic design, in making change and encouraging sustainability and positive change in general. You know, most people can design a social media post in Canva. But designing one that really speaks to your target audience, and communicates your message powerfully and effectively is not such an easy task. So I guess you could say it was my love for design and commitment to sustainability that later led to me kind of pairing these two things together, and making a business out of it. And deciding this is how I was going to contribute to positive change in the world as it were.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:52
Yeah, that's interesting. Did you cover marketing in your degree aswell?

Tara Pigott 6:55
No, it wasn't marketing. It was, it was kind of just studying all of the world's problems. And how we can, you know, in essence, go about solving them. But no, marketing wasn't a part of it.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:07
I find that the command that you have of marketing impressive for someone who hasn't put it into her studies. So that's really encouraging as well. And what do you consider to be the role of design in general on bringing about that change that you want to see? How does design affect us?

Tara Pigott 7:26
Yeah, I think it's really important, especially in our day and age, where so much of what we're consuming is online, which has resulted in people's attention spans getting really short. So it becomes even more important to grab people's attention quickly. And we need to do this in order to encourage people to make change or to join a movement. And you've really got to be intentional about that, and how you're gonna go about doing it. So design is what you can use to grab their attention and communicate your message with them really concisely. And clearly, you know, if we can design a brand, or campaign or social media post that really appeals to the people that we want to target and makes people want to read it and makes people want to learn more, or even convinces them to take an action, then we've done a good job. And I think without good design, it's quite hard to do that.

Katherine Ann Byam 8:21
Yeah. Now, I totally get you I follow you on that. And I think that some of the greatest campaigns that we've seen have really considered the experience of the person watching, right, so it moves you and you know, you look at films like 'don't look up' or things like this, and you really connect with it in a different way than, you know, a scary Guardian article. And God bless the Guardian, I think they do a really good job. But, you know, sometimes there's a lot of fear in there. So, I understand completely what you're saying. How do you measure success? And what has surprised you about your progress so far?

Tara Pigott 8:57
Yeah. So for me, like success isn't necessarily a numerical value or tangible thing that I can quantify. It more so speaks to, you know, a feeling and sense of satisfaction within, so I'd measure success in how fulfilled I feel, like how happy and confident I am, but also how much value I've provided people with and how much change I've helped to bring about through design. Yeah, I think it's kind of, in a way dangerous to chase numerical goals and indicators of success, because ultimately, we'll never be satisfied. And we'll always be chasing more and getting carried away with the data. So that's why I see success as more an overall fulfilment, satisfaction with what I've achieved and how to bring about and it's not this abstract thing that we can ponder about, you know, when I'm successful, but rather we can see ourselves as successful now and now we can be content with where we are now while still moving forward and contributing to more impact.

Katherine Ann Byam 10:07
Yeah, and what has surprised you about what you've achieved so far?

Tara Pigott 10:11
I think for me, I really resonate with the quote that says 'people overestimate what they can achieve in a year, but underestimate what they can achieve in five or say, 10'. And for me, I can relate to this, because the start was very much, you know, a hard slog, like coming out of uni and deciding to start this business, I didn't have a big network, and I didn't really know much about business, or, even marketing at the time. But I guess what surprised me is how much, how powerful the compounding effects of all the work I've put in up until this point is, and how that's just going to keep on growing from now. And I'll see the results of my work in due time. So I guess that has been the surprising factors, like the first year, you know, nothing crazy is gonna happen. But it's thinking about, you know, the next five or 10, where I think all the crazy kind of results are gonna start happening.

Katherine Ann Byam 11:09
When it comes to pricing. How did you go about picking your pricing? I'm intrigued by this. Because when you're just starting out, I can imagine that that's a really slippery slope. How did you navigate that?

Tara Pigott 11:21
Yeah, so that was a challenging thing for me at the time, because, yeah, I wasn't very business savvy, and didn't know much about pricing. And I found myself just comparing my pricing to other designers. And that was kind of how I went about it. But you know, there's also that thing about imposter syndrome at the start is like, well, they're really good designers, why can't possibly charge that much. So there's a lot of yeah, comparing myself and comparing my prices to other people that were offering similar things. But now I try and take it back to the value of what I'm providing. And if this work that I'm doing is going to provide someone with a lot of value, then I should be charging accordingly for that, but it's still a thing that I'm figuring out and trying to navigate. And a thing that will constantly change with time, with my experience and my offering. So it's nothing, nothing that I fully figured out right now, I'd say.

Katherine Ann Byam 12:20
And I have another question around this. And it's, it's more to do with why you decided to start on your own, as opposed to work with an agency or something to start with? Why, why this choice? And why this pathway?

Tara Pigott 12:34
Yeah, it's a good question, because I did have that question at the start, when I knew I wanted to become a graphic designer, there was two kind of routes to go down, it was agency or, you know, being a designer for a company or doing it myself. And I think the doing it myself, and starting a business and starting a freelance venture, as it were, just seemed a lot more appealing to me at the time, I wanted to build something that I could truly be proud of and that could be my own, and it seems like a great challenge. And I love a challenge. And I guess it also gave me the, the opportunity to link it back to sustainability and positive change that I was so passionate about, I still wanted to retain some of that within what I was doing, and not just work for an agency or work for a company that wasn't related to sustainability or bringing about positive change. So I guess it was just yeah, my desire to do something good for the world and I thought like being a freelance designer for positive impact businesses was just a great way of doing that. But it was a very scary decision to make at the time.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:40
Yeah, no, I understand that. And I want to ask one more question around this, I know that I'm digging a lot into your business. But I think that's interesting for a lot of people who are in your position. And I know that you would have faced a lot of these challenges, but I really, I'm really interested in whether or not your client base is 100%, your ideal client, first of all, and what are you struggling with in terms of convincing brands to make more green choices? If you are struggling with that?

Tara Pigott 14:08
Yeah. So first question, no, all my clients right now wouldn't fall into the category of kind of sustainable, positive impact businesses or organisations. And I think when you're starting out any kind of business or freelance venture, we shouldn't restrict ourselves in terms of what work we're doing and who we're getting involved in because it's just really great to get experience across as many kind of places as you can. And I don't want to be turning down work and losing out on those experiences that are going to teach me so many things. So yeah, at the minute, no, it's not 100% my ideal client base, although that is what I'd like to move towards in the future. And the second question in terms of encouraging brands to make ethical change. I wouldn't say that, that's something I'm strongly involved with because the Ethical brands that come to me they're already wanting to make a positive impact are really concerned about how ethical they are being. So I don't tend to be involved in the process of convincing different brands to make ethical change, if you know what I mean.

Katherine Ann Byam 15:16
So let's look toward the future so Metari Design, what are the big hairy goals and key milestones you see for yourself, let's say in the next five years, and I know that five years is a long time in today's sort of environment and context of a lot of global risks. But what do you see for Metari?

Tara Pigott 15:37
Yeah, again, like this is always a hard question for me to answer because I'm more so like a person that does what feels like the right thing at the time, more so spontaneously, so I don't have like a solid plan laid out about where I want to get to at a certain point in the future. But I do have a few goals. And I do think that our goals should scare us. And if they don't, then they're probably not big enough, I would like to be able to do some public speaking on, you know, the importance of design in sustainability and bring about positive change. And I think I'd like to work with some big organisations and charities that are involved in driving this positive change, and help them with their visual communication and how they're communicating with the broader public. And I think a final thing that I potentially like to do in the future, would be to study more in depth, the behavioural science responses of people when they interact with design, so that I can better understand how to create a design that makes the most impact on people when they are viewing it and have that really rooted in science so that we can use this to drive even more positive change. But in terms of you know, where I'll be in five years, you know, only time can tell I'm excited to see myself, I think it will be somewhere exciting. So we shall see.

Katherine Ann Byam 17:07
Perfect, I'd love some tips. So can you give my listeners some tips on how to prepare for a brand design consultation, and how to think about their design.

Tara Pigott 17:17
So yeah, if you're interested in a brand design consultation, the first thing I'd recommend is getting really clear on what I call your brand's foundations; purpose, your values, your mission, and the messages you want to share as a business or organisation. And without these kind of key foundations of your brand, it will be hard to steer your business in the correct direction, prepare it properly for the design stage, essentially. So your designer will usually ask you about these things in a consultation that, so that they can understand your business and use that to create a design that works really well. So it is good to have, you know, some sort of a clear idea of what they are before going into consultation. Secondly, I think you should consider what you want to get out of working with the designer, that could be more clarity on your brand and who you are, as a business, it could be more sales, it could be to gain funding, or to appeal to a new target audience really nailing this down. And getting clear on what you want to get out of this whole brand design process, will make sure that the whole experience is a great success for you. Because if you're clear with the designer about what you want to get out of it they'll hopefully make sure those goals are achieved, and that both parties are happy with the final outcome. So they're are two tips that I'd give

Katherine Ann Byam 18:44
Thank you so much for that. And finally, I would love to know about powerlifting, it's probably one of the most interesting things I've read in your profile as well. What inspired you to get into powerlifting? First of all, and how does it help you in life and health?

Tara Pigott 19:00
I guess it it could go back to when I was younger, I was actually a sprinter so I did athletics and as a part of that as part of the training for that, we'd do some weights in the gym. And I kind of just loved this section of the training so much that you know, when sprinting kind of didn't work out for me in the end, and I wasn't seeing as much progress, I kind of just wanted to carry on doing sport and training of some sort. So I found powerlifting at university, I think and once I found out about it and found out that you know, weightlifting and lifting weights was a sport in itself. I just became really interested in it. And that's where I got introduced to it and I started training for it and I started competing. And it just, yeah, I just really loved it that I just carried on I'm still doing it all these years later. And yeah, in terms of how it helps me in my life and health now. I think it's a great break it's a great separation from work related things it gives me like a second focus, not all my time and energy is spent going into the one thing, I think it's great to have another thing that you're also focused on so that you can renew and recharge and get inspired and not just be bogged down by the same one thing all the time. So, yeah, it gives me another focus, and also it encourages me to prioritise other things in my life, such as sleep and nutrition and being active. And without having powerlifting, I don't think I'd be as motivated to prioritise all those other aspects of my life to make sure I'm as healthy as I can be in order to make the most progress in the gym, etc. So that's another benefit of it in terms of health.

Katherine Ann Byam 20:43
It's really, really intriguing. And thank you so much for sharing today with us. How can my listeners reach out to you?

Tara Pigott 20:50
Yeah, so I am on LinkedIn. Tara Pigott, is my name. So I'm quite active over there on LinkedIn. But if you're not on LinkedIn, you could also feel free to send me an email. Perfect. Thanks for joining us, Tara. No worries, it's been lovely to have a conversation with you.

Katherine Ann Byam 21:09
This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new Women In Sustainable Business Awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion, or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation, you are more than welcome to join us, and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group, on Facebook; Woman In Sustainable Business, or follow the podcast; Where Ideas Launch, on Instagram to find out more.

About this Episode

Selina is the Founder & CEO of Recloseted, the first one-stop consultancy for sustainable fashion. Recloseted launches + scales sustainable fashion brands and helps existing brands become more conscious through their programs and consulting services. Selina leverages her experience working at startups and Fortune 500s, and now leads an all-star team of consultants, sourcing experts, and material scientists to transform the harmful fashion industry. 

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:01
Let's talk a little bit about this whole field of sustainable fashions, everyone appears to know that their fashion choices have an impact. But yet, we still see people continuing to enjoy these practices that aren't necessarily helpful. What are your thoughts on this?

Selina Ho 0:17
I will say I do think most people know now about fast fashion and the differences between that and slow fashion. When I first started half a decade ago, I would say it was dicey around who knew and who didn't. And so to your point now, I almost feel like there's no excuse not to do anything. And so what I think personally is holding people back is a combination of things. One thing could be money, the other thing could just be time. And then the third thing could just be lack of care if I'm being blunt, right, because if you really care, you're going to do something about it.

Katherine Ann Byam 0:49
This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because, we or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet, if we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views but never at either extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy Season Five of Where Ideas launch; The Sustainable Innovation Podcast. Selina is the founder and CEO of recloseted the first one stop consultancy for sustainable fashion. Recloseted launches and scales, sustainable fashion brands, and helps existing brands become more conscious through their programmes and consulting services. Selina leverages her experience working at startups and fortune 500s, and now leads an all star team of consultants, sourcing experts and material scientists to transform the harmful fashion industry. Selina, welcome to where it is lunch.

Selina Ho 2:23
Thank you so much, Katherine, I'm so excited to be here.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:26
Really great to have you. I really want to understand a little bit about what you do in more detail. Because it's amazing when I look at the summary of what you've shared with us in your bio, and I Googled your digital footprint, and it's all very impressive. I noticed your degree was in business and not necessarily dedicated to sustainability. So I'd love to know where your interest and passion for sustainable business and life comes from.

Selina Ho 2:50
Yeah, well, thank you so much for the kind words, I think that I've just always been so passionate about this. And it just organically happened. And I find that that's always really fun, where you go to school and you study something, you start working, and then it doesn't really make sense when you're going through it, but then when you look back, you're like, oh, this makes sense. So, anyways, long story short, I've always been passionate about entrepreneurship. I've also always been passionate about the environment. So background on me, I grew up in Vancouver, Canada, and if you've ever been there, if you haven't been there, beautiful, there's lots of nature, there's lots of mountains and oceans. And I was always surrounded by that. And I would enjoy hiking and snowboarding and just like just always love being in nature. And then personally for me, too, I've just always been so inspired by entrepreneurship and building your own company building something that does good for you, its employees that you employ, and also the environment and trying to figure out the intersectionality of all of that. And so I went to business school, I learned kind of The ABCs of business, and it was good, but I graduated. And so I did a corporate job. And at that corporate job, maybe like a lot of your listeners, I kind of felt really lost. And I didn't really know what I was doing with my career. And I was like, why am I in this cubicle? I feel like I'm just rotting away. And at that point, I had really discovered just like fashion and the harmful effects of it. Granted, you know, I've always loved fashion, I love clothing. But yeah, just like finding out more about the sustainability side of it, the environmental side of it, it spurred when I got a skin rash actually wearing a blouse at work. And we can talk a little bit more about that. But that really spurred me to go down this rabbit hole of trying to figure out what's going on with our clothes and what I can do to help.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:36
What was the moment that you knew sustainable fashion was going to be where you drive your efforts forward and and create that change and impact, what really happened to make this business model make sense for you.

Selina Ho 4:47
Yeah, so like I mentioned, it all started kind of with that skin rash and I was wearing a polyester blouse at the time I kind of knew what polyester was, but I didn't really and when I started Googling it I found out it's basically made out of oil. And I always like to say, you know, we're not going to go to the gas station put oil all over our bodies. So why are we wearing these garments for hours and hours on end, right, and the materials was kind of just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to fast fashion and the harmful effects of fashion. And so I went down this deep, dark rabbit hole of the unethical treatment of garment workers, the harmful materials that we're putting on our bodies, the millions and millions of tonnes of textile waste going to our landfills filling up the global South, like there's just so much wrong with the fashion industry. And that was when the passion and the fire really lit within me to do something about it, because up until then, I had worked out a lot of like, you know, fortune 500s, startups, like I mentioned, like you mentioned, but it just didn't feel fulfilling. And I really wanted to take my expertise and my skills and put it towards something that I really believed in. And so that's when that kind of started and then the actual starting of Recloseted as a business came really organically. I started the podcast, I wrote a handbook to consumers about how to really start the sustainable fashion journey. And then I started working pro bono for local sustainable brands, just helping them launch, helping them scale, and I was able to get them a lot of great results and in the process, I also loved the work I was doing. And so then I was like, I should turn this into business. So that's how it started. It was really organic. And again, looking back, it kind of makes sense. But going through it, it was very messy.

Katherine Ann Byam 6:26
That's really great. And that's the kind of stories we like to hear. Because a lot of people, you know, they're going through this difficult phase, and you know, maybe one or two years in and you're still not sure you're still not convinced it's ready to tip to your favour. But you know, it does tip. And I think that's part of the beauty of this journey, and the commitment that you make as well the long term commitment and all the marketing choices that you make. So let's talk a little bit about this whole field of sustainable fashion. So there's a lot of knowledge out there. And everyone appears to know that their fashion choices have an impact. But yet we still see people supporting those damaging brands, and continuing to perhaps enjoy these practices that aren't necessarily helpful. What are your thoughts on this?

Selina Ho 7:12
Yeah, so I will say I do think most people know now about fast fashion and the differences between that and slow fashion. When I first started half a decade ago, I would say it was dicey around who knew and who didn't. And so to your point, now, I almost feel like there's no excuse not to do anything. And so what I think personally is holding people back is a combination of things. One thing could be money, the other thing could just be time. And then the third thing could just be lack of care if I'm being blunt, right, because if you really care, you're going to do something about it. And so with the money piece, sustainable fashion does have typically a bad reputation for being more expensive for being inaccessible. And I'm happy to talk about how everyday consumers can, you know, try to incorporate more sustainable practices, even on a budget later on, if that's helpful, but there's the money piece, and also for brands as well, right, they have to invest and paying their garment workers higher or more, they have to invest in better quality materials, they have to, you know, design intentionally. And so all of that has higher costs associated with, with all of that. So costs are definitely something that hold people back. And then of course time as well, right? Like if you're going to thrift or if you're going to try to research a sustainable brand. Or on the brand side, if you want to actually think intentionally about what to design versus just copying a fast fashion brand, then all that requires more time and more effort. And the banner on top of all that is the care, right? Like you really need to figure out which part of the fashion industry resonates with you, why you're really passionate about solving it like me, like for me, personally, it was the textile waste, and also the unethical treatment of garment workers like that really, really lit a fire in me. And so, yeah, I think it's a combination of those things. And of course, some people might have a lack of education as well. And so if that's you, please watch the true cost, please. You know, Google, there's, there's so many resources out there. There's so many documentaries, so many videos, so there's really no excuse.

Katherine Ann Byam 9:09
Yeah, I get that. And I'd love to experience what this journey was like in terms of the success stories that you've had those campaigns you've run for clients, and the impact that your work has actually had on communities perhaps and even in the lives of the business owners.

Selina Ho 9:25
Yeah. So one thing I would love to share with your listeners is when you're going through it, yes, it's messy every single day kind of feels the same, kind of like Groundhog Day. But when you take a look back and you really write down all of your accomplishments and your successes, you realise how far you've come. And so I really recommend to your listeners to do that on a monthly quarterly and annual basis. Because in preparation for this podcast, I kind of like thought through it and I was like well, we've actually done a lot in the past few years. And so yeah, there's there's a few things I'm proud of so for our recorded radio podcast, we've had hundreds of 1000s of downloads and streams. So that's something I'm really, really proud of, because that just means our message is getting out there, and people are joining our movement. And then from a brand perspective, we've helped 1000s of brands all over the world as well, which is also something I'm incredibly proud of, because, again, that speaks to sustainable fashion taking off worldwide, but also speaks to the amount of impact we can have. And when our brands and our clients make better choices, we also have a better impact on the environment and on, you know, society in general, so that's been really great. And just on a very, I guess, tactical level, I'm also very passionate about creating conscious wealth for entrepreneurs, because I often find that with fashion and with kind of more creative businesses, there's this mentality of being a starving artist, and I hate that mentality. And I hate that stigma. And so I'm really, really passionate about creating conscious wealth for all of our clients. And so our LYB programme launches brands that make at minimum 20k. That's something I'm really, really proud of our Accelerate Your Brand programme helps clients to be able to achieve consistent monthly revenue, which is really, really tough for entrepreneurs just starting out. And so I really am a firm believer in doing something that you're passionate about, doing a business that can have a great impact on the environment, but also making sure that you can pay yourself, your employees and everyone just associated with the business,

Katherine Ann Byam 11:26
What are the challenges and obstacles that might be getting in the way for some of your clients at the moment, and what needs to happen to make those things improve, it maybe some of the things my clients or even my listeners are facing now?

Selina Ho 11:37
Yeah, if I'm being honest, I think funding is a struggle for a lot of business owners right now, especially in the recession, especially coming out of COVID. And for a lot of our clients, and probably your clients and your listeners too, if you have higher business costs, because you are paying people fairly, you're buying better materials, then it's a struggle, right? Like you really want to figure out how you can drum up sales. So what I always tell our clients is in these difficult times to really double down and figure out who your ideal customer is, really try to nurture them, really try to figure out what their pain points are. And just be super intentional with every single thing you put out there. We've also really suggested to a lot of our clients to move to more of a pre sales or inventory, like made to order model versus having inventory, because that can be a lot better in these uncertain times. And then I'll just like kind of a plea or a message to just an everyday consumer out there. If you do have some money and you are thinking about buying new clothes, or you need something, please try to support one of your local sustainable brands, because they definitely need that funding and that money way more than a fast fashion brand. So please just take five to 10 minutes, do a quick Google search, try to find a local brand in your area that you like and vote with your dollars, right? Like if you support them, that's going to go so much further than you giving it to Zara, or you know, some of those other fast fashion brands, and we won't name them all. But you know, so just Just please be more mindful.

Katherine Ann Byam 13:04
And I want to touch on this aspect of funding and what has been sort of your experience in helping some of your business owners get funding or in getting funding for yourself? Can you share a bit about that?

Selina Ho 13:17
Yeah, so in terms of funding, there's a few different mechanisms that we have suggested to our clients to leverage. So we actually don't recommend our clients get investment from private equity or you know, other investors just because it's really, really hard from a b2c perspective, they're always looking for really innovative products. But beyond that, their time horizon for returns are also very, very short, usually. And so it can get really, really stressful. And so instead, I think that pre sales model can really, really help where you get funding in advance from your customers. You can also try something like crowdfunding, which is another model where your customers pool and they help perhaps pay for your production, which is the highest cost and then you can go off and go make it. There's of course also bank loans, but now with interest rates being where they are, I kind of don't recommend that anymore, unless you absolutely, absolutely have to. Of course, there's also funding and raising from loved ones and family members, so friendlies if you're able to do that and take it seriously and show them the routine, you know, the returns and all those things. But yeah, I think just really trying to double down on getting funding from your customers. That's always what we recommend to our clients, be it from a pre sales or advanced, made to order type model or just trying to drum up sales and trying to be more innovative with your marketing both organic and paid and doing some of those things. But I know it's tough.

Katherine Ann Byam 14:43
It is definitely tough. And it's a journey that I think a lot of people are just contemplating right now given the economics of the situation today and probably even people turning away from, from their small businesses because of the anxiety involved in it, all right, so it's definitely a challenge. So I want to move into your big goals, your key milestones, what you think is gonna happen for a closeted or what you'd like to happen for a closeted in the next couple of years.

Selina Ho 15:11
Yeah, when it comes to goals, I just want to get bigger, scale up, really scale our impact, that's really it, we just started a YouTube channel. So just making sure we continue to grow that, obviously growing our podcast, growing our clientele. And at the end of the day, I just really want to make sure that we move the, the needle in the industry where it needs to go. And I really think that we just need to keep doing what we're doing. We just need to put the gas to it. And yeah, so that's really the big, hairy, audacious goal just get better, and get bigger and just scale up.

Katherine Ann Byam 15:45
Are you currently doing any impact reporting?

Selina Ho 15:47
Yes we are. And so that's also something I really want to do in the next year or so as well, because a lot of our clients, we do a lot of the sustainability consulting for them in terms of like water usage, and dyes and all those things, and I would love to aggregate it, and then kind of show like our overall impact, because I think that would be so cool to see. But it's, it's just just a matter of time and resources and just finding that but that's definitely on the list.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:14
Yeah perfect, that's a really solid way to demonstrate right. And it's really good for for potential customers for potential investors as well, super. So let's move now to tips. And I want to do this in two directions to consumers interested in sustainable fashion, who may be looking for, you know, ideas and how to develop their wardrobes, etc. And to business developing clothing brands, who are also curious about what they can do to have more reach and more impact with their campaigns and sales.

Selina Ho 16:44
Yeah, so let's start with consumers. So consumers, I really think first of all, you need to educate yourself, if you aren't already educated. So watch the true cost, you can check out our handbook, it's just recloseted.com/handbook There's really no excuse, there's so many resources out there. And then the first step I like to say is just to figure out your why. So which part of the harmful fashion industry resonates with you so that you're intrinsically motivated to do something about it. And then the second step, I always like to say too, is just accept, you're going to be imperfectly sustainable, because otherwise, if you want to be perfect, you're gonna get really, really overwhelmed and probably give up. So just understand, it's not going to happen overnight, but you can take baby steps, and that's okay, so maybe the first step you take is you don't buy new clothes for six months, and you try that out and you see what happens. Or maybe the first step you take is you thrift clothes for a year and you don't buy anything, and you issue those fun challenges to yourself. And maybe that inspires your friends or your family members. But I really think you need to start somewhere and be okay with what you have in your wardrobe already. Just accept it, be fine with it and just move on and try to just buy less as much as possible. That's something that I always encourage. And then for the brands that you are buying from just make sure they align with your values. So yeah, I hope that helps. But just accept that you're not going to be perfect, that's okay, and just figure out what's going to motivate you to keep going. And then from a brand perspective, I always always always talk about taking a customer first approach. So figuring out who your ideal customer is, and knowing that inside and out through market research, surveys and interviews, and that way you can figure out the pain point that they're struggling with, and then create a product to solve that pain point. Because we do not need more product just because people want to make another t-shirt or sell another pair of pants, we just don't need that anymore. But we need innovative things that solve problems. And when you have a product that solves a problem, people will quite literally give you their credit card because they're like, I need this in my life, right. And so it's really, really important to take that customer first approach. And when you do that, from a strategic perspective, your marketing, your campaigns, everything does line into place. But you do need to take the time to really understand your customers and be strategic and intentional about what you're producing.

Katherine Ann Byam 19:02
It's interesting, and I always find myself at this point of a conversation with anyone in the sustainability space, around scaling up and growth and the conflict around what growth is potentially doing to our lives and our environment. Right. And, of course, we want more sustainability, we want more brands that are like ours to grow. But still, ultimately, consumption has become overwhelmingly part of the problem. What, how do you reconcile that?

Selina Ho 19:32
Yeah, it's something that myself and a lot of our clients think about and keeps, I know keeps a lot of them up at night. And so the first piece of advice I have is to get clear on how big you want to get. Because in business and in hustle culture, if you will, you always are pushed to scale you're always pick, really pushed to like 2x revenue 5x revenue and I think that's really, really unhelpful because if you don't want to grow to become a $50 million business, then you don't have to, if you're happy growing and scaling up to a million, and that's going to be able to give you, your employees, your families enough income, then that's what you need to aim for. But you don't need to then feel stressed to then have to reach 10 million, 20 million, like if you don't want to. And so the first thing is getting really clear on where you want to go and how big you want to go. And then the next step is to work backwards to figure out what's the best and most conscious way you can go about it. And one thing I always like to say too is, there is actually no such thing as a truly sustainable business, because if you want it to be truly sustainable, you wuldn't even start a business to begin with. So the name of the game really is about balance, how do you balance your business activities, making a profit, but then also minimising your impact on the environment. And so I think Patagonia, for example, does a really good job of that they are very transparent about their shortcomings and their limitations. And they have scaled up to be quite a big brand I think all of us can agree on. But they try to do it in the best manner possible. And at the end of the day, I think the best thing you can do is try, the best thing you can do is do the best with your time, your resources and your budgets. And you just have to do that. Because the alternative is you don't do your brand you give up and everyone else gives up and then we're left with only fast fashion brands, right. And so I think it's really important to get clear on how big you want to get what you can do to get there and the best way you can do that, and just make peace with it.

Katherine Ann Byam 21:30
Yeah. And finally, how can my listeners get in touch and engage with your work? I know you've already shared about the podcast, but how else can we get on board?

Selina Ho 21:38
Yeah, I mean, we're pretty much everywhere. So if you want to check out our website, it's just recloseted.com we have a tonne of free resources on there. So please take advantage of them. We are also on all social media channels pretty much so it's just at recloseted. We are on YouTube. We also have the recorded radio podcast so please reach out. We would love to hear from you. If you have any questions about anything I mentioned, I am happy to answer them so you can shoot us a DM you can send us an email at Hello@recloseted.com we really are here to help transform the harmful fashion industry and support everyone. So please, please, please reach out.

Katherine Ann Byam 22:14
Awesome. Thank you Selina. It's been such a joy meeting you and chatting to you today.

Selina Ho 22:18
Thanks so much, Katherine. This is so fun. And I hope that this is really helpful to your listeners.

Katherine Ann Byam 22:26
This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new Women In Sustainable Business Awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion, or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation, you are more than welcome to join us, and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group, on Facebook; Woman In Sustainable Business, or follow the podcast; Where Ideas Launch, on Instagram to find out more.

About this Episode

Nancy Hyne is a sustainability advisor and founder of True Horizon Sustainability Strategies.

Her mission is to support SMEs with no-nonsense strategy and support. Getting to the heart of your sustainability goals, Nancy helps impact driven companies revamp their business model to balance people, profit and the planet.  She’s based in the beautiful New Forest area in the south of England, but works with businesses across the UK and the world. 

Her services include:

1. Environmental certifications including ISO 14001 and B Corp
2. Sustainability strategy development
3. Stakeholder engagement
4. Carbon emissions calculations

Episode Transcript

 Katherine Ann Byam 0:01
Is there something more that small businesses should be thinking about contributing to, to sort of help the ecology but also the society around them?

Nancy Hyne 0:11
I think this is one again, where that engagement piece is key. Like if we if we think at the moment cost of living is skyrocketing. So probably if you have employees, they're a little bit nervous about how they're going to meet costs and things start to ask the question, it's no good you kind of offering free yoga if actually what they want to do is they might ned meal vouchers or, you know, whatever it might be, getting that engagement with your employees first as a starting point, what are the challenges you're facing? And how can we help paying a living wage? You know, what are the things that your employees need, from a community point of view, make it personal, yeah, you can go and plant trees, if that's what you want to do. Great. That's a positive thing to do. But if there's things going on in your local region, get people involved get the engagement, what matters to the employees, in your company, and in your local community.

Katherine Ann Byam 1:03
This is season five, the great debates of our times, Season Five will be centred around the great debates. And we will be comparing and contrasting different viewpoints on various topics that are consuming the public discourse at present. The reason I've decided to take this approach is because, we or at least many of us, are losing the skill of debate. And I think this is an essential skill for us all to practice once more. I don't see how we get to the point of saving the world and saving our planet, if we don't know how to discuss our differences. I also think that the solution to most of our challenges is somewhere in the spectrum of views but never at either extreme. I will be working with guests to curate the content and discuss beforehand, I will understand their positions, their areas of genius, and navigate my questions around that so that the conversation is challenging and stimulating without being combative. I hope you enjoy Season Five of Where Ideas launch; The Sustainable Innovation Podcast. Nancy Hyne is a sustainability advisor and founder of true horizon sustainability strategies. Her mission is to support SMEs with no nonsense strategy and support. Getting to the heart of your sustainability goals, Nancy helps impact driven companies revamp their business models to balance people, profit and the planet. She's based in the beautiful new forest area in the south of England, but works for businesses across the UK and the world. Nancy, welcome to Where Ideas launch.

Nancy Hyne 2:32
Thank you for having me, Katherine.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:34
Really wonderful to have you and really wonderful to have someone from the New Forest. I love the new forest. Me and my partner spend a lot of time there when we can because I live in the centre of Southampton but we often take a day trip to walk in the woods.

Nancy Hyne 2:47
You should definitely give me a call next time you're down. You'll, you'll have two Labradors in tow. But yeah, we're out there all the time.

Katherine Ann Byam 2:55
That's perfect, we have a date. So we've been connected for some time on LinkedIn exchanging comments and a lot of positive energy, but we've never managed speak. So this is really a pleasure. So thank you for joining me. And I want to start with your why. And that's where any good story begins. So tell us how you came to run your environmental advisory practice and what the sustainability movement means to you.

Nancy Hyne 3:18
Yeah, so I actually started my career as a structural engineer, so designing buildings, and I chose engineering, a little bit out of the blue, I wanted to travel and I did end up travelling, I ended up working in Sydney. And I started working on quite a cool project that was very focused on sustainability and community. And I kind of realised that I liked that side of it more than the actual structural design. So I did a bit of a sidestep while I was out there. And I started looking at kind of new build design, how we can use buildings better and be more efficient. But when I moved back to the UK, it's quite a different market. And also we have a lot of old building stock here. So it became much more about looking at the way businesses operate. Yes, of course, the building feeds into that. But you know, looking at things like business, travel and energy consumption, you know, how do we change the way that we work, and use our buildings to be more sustainable to be more responsible. And I worked in corporate for a long time, which is great, because I learned a huge amount, but I started to realise that there was not as much support available for SMEs. And here in the UK SMEs account for over 99% of businesses, they have a huge impact. And they often don't have those in house teams. They don't necessarily have the budgets, you know, they can't hire the big consultants who are desperate to work for the big companies. But I realised that there was some really great, sustainable, responsible businesses coming through, you know, people who had left the corporate world, wanted to do things a bit differently, but they didn't have the support that they needed. I think also the move from London to the new forest had a big impact. You know, a lot of people who are not based in London, don't live in London for a reason, you know, they want that space, they want the countryside, they want the new forest, they want all of these things. And I started to wonder if there was a way that we could kind of level the playing field, how do we give those businesses the opportunity to compete against the larger corporates, but also to give them that chance to grow and evolve their business in a way that feels right and ethical for them without a huge admin burden, but also in a way that sort of profits, the business as well, you know, we want ethical responsible businesses to be profitable, to keep going, to survive and to compete against those big corporates. So that's kind of where I, where I started. So kind of using all the learnings from my corporate life, because quite often, these smaller businesses have large clients or, you know, they're being asked to do things by these larger clients. So being able to tap into that knowledge and give them the tools that need, they need to be able to compete and to thrive as well.

Katherine Ann Byam 5:59
This is really important that I'm glad that you're doing this. It's one of the reasons my partner and I also left the corporate world and decided to set up a business dedicated to SMEs, really. So I wanted to move to this experience that you've heard working with clients or general case studies, perhaps what do you know to be the characteristics of a company operating effectively as a B Corp?

Nancy Hyne 6:21
I think a lot of it comes down to motivation, you know, you, people come to a certification, like B Corp for lots of different reasons. The ones that I really love working with, and the ones that I kind of will filter out are those businesses that have a real desire to be better and to do better and have a positive impact. So I've worked with companies who are going through the certification process, and they really want to use that to learn and to kind of better their business, but also on the other side of B Corp, but once you've got that certification, it's a great accolade, you've worked really hard to get there. But what do you do next? And I think with any certification, it's all about that commitment to keep improving. So I think that's the ultimate drive for B Corp or any other certification that you really want to learn. And you're committed to change and to being better and to challenging that status quo about what being a business owner means and what the purpose of a business is. Beyond just putting money in shareholder pockets.

Katherine Ann Byam 7:22
Yeah, some will say that ESG, B Corp, all give businesses an opportunity for greenwashing, because the business itself doesn't have to be ethical, or to score full points on the assessments, what would be your response to those who doubt the merits of what we're trying to do with these metrics that we're coming up with?

Nancy Hyne 7:42
I think the reality is, there's always going to be an opportunity to skew things in your favour, to greenwash, to whatever you're doing. There's ways and means of doing it. I think the key thing is really to look at a companies transparency when they're doing this sort of things, if they're, if all they're doing is shouting about the good in inverted commas that they do, and they're never flagging the challenges, you know, the things that they're not doing well, we all, you know, business is inherently unsustainable, we are consuming, we're travelling we're, it is just, you know, by living, we have an impact. So yes, of course, there can be ways to skew it. And I think it's important to remember that no certification is perfect. It's not a symbol of perfection, it's a symbol of drawing a line in the sand and committing to improvement. So I think it gets a little bit dangerous if we sort of throw it out all together, because it's, it's actually really unfair on the businesses that have done it for the right reasons, heart lead, and are committed to being better. But I also think, and we kind of touched on this earlier in the week, there's huge changes coming to B Corp over the next few years, and they're in the middle of a consultation phase at the moment, and the proposals are quite different, there's going to be a lot of impact to current B Corps, and to ones that are planning to certify in the future, and I think that's right, I think so much has changed in society over the last few years. And we have to address that, we do have to keep changing and improving and challenging ourselves. And it'll be interesting to see whether you know, some B Corps decide that it's no longer the root for them. And it will be interesting to see how attainable some of the things that they're talking about, because there are some really challenging areas that we have to address. And how do we make it accessible for all businesses and try and weed out the people who are trying to kind of just make it a marketing ploy. So there's a, there's a tricky balance there.

So we're gonna come back to the changes, but I wanted to first touch on some of the content of what that B Corp assessment is. So, I myself, have done the B Impact assessment on my own business, and I never moved forward to make my business a B Corp, for the reasons we've been discussing, probably before we actually got onto the session, but for me, and I guess for people who are listening who are on the fence or thinking about it, could you explain what the B Impact assessment really does? And probably go into a little bit about where people need the most help, usually, when you get involved with helping them through this assessment.

Yeah, so the thing I like about B Corp is that it's very holistic. So you're looking, there's not many certifications that, that, take that wider view, there's a lot that focus on environment or social, but this kind of looks at everything. So you've got five sections from governance, community, workers, customers, and environment. So you're really looking at every business decision you're making. And the idea is that you go through the assessment, and you answer questions, and you get scored based on the industry your in, the size of your business. So the questions are tailored based on those differences in businesses, and you are aiming to get a minimum of 80 points across all of those sections. And what I tend to find is, particularly for SMEs, there's two areas that come up a lot. One is the governance side of things, as a small business you might not have, you might do things a certain way, but you may not have policies, formal policies in place. And that can feel a little bit daunting for businesses. I went through the B Corp process for my own business. And it felt a little weird writing policies for myself. But actually, it's cemented some of the things that I've been thinking about, and it made me really sit down and think, okay, how do I operate in this space. And it's also come in quite handy for project bids and stuff, if people are asking about your values, you can point them to, you know, a code of conduct or an environmental policy. So, but it can feel a little bit daunting, if you're not used to that. The other big one is environment, you're going to struggle to score any points if you're not sort of calculating and tracking emissions. And that can be really a challenging task for a lot of companies. I see it a lot with again, particularly with SMEs, just you know where to start, and how to unravel all the terminology and make sense of what a tonne of carbon looks like. And, you know, what does, what's different scope. So that tends to be another area that I focus on quite a lot with, I normally, you know, there's a bit of a mixture, I think, going through the process highlights what you do really well. So you might look after your employees really well. But it also highlights the areas where you have room for improvement. So it's a really good process to go through. And you can start setting longer term goals for where you want to take your business and how you want to improve it. And I think you know, even that getting to certification is such a great process. And it's fantastic to watch businesses make changes and, and get excited about what they're doing and how they're improving.

Katherine Ann Byam 12:50
This is wonderful. And let's touch a little bit on some of the key tips to bringing yourself up to that 80, 80 level, what are some, some great ideas that people have been able to implement relatively easily.

Nancy Hyne 13:06
The the big, quick wins tend to be the policy ones. So yeah, they take a little bit of time to sit down and think about and write. But it's kind of a no cost option, which is great, if you don't have massive budgets to align to it. One of the things I'd really recommend is not leaving it to one person in the business, get engagement built, bring people into it, they're going to have ideas they're going to have, you know, they're, and you're also going to find out what else is going on in other areas of the business that you can focus on, you want to tailor it, you know, if you're about to do a big recruitment drive, have a look at the employee section, make it relevant to where your business is at now, you know, it's going to help you think about the wording you use in job adverts or how accessible they are, how are you building diversity into your business. So make it really relevant for for what's going on in your business at that particular point in time. And you know, have, have things in your back pocket for future use as well. Because some there won't be, there will be things in there that you think we actually can't do that now for whatever reason, don't worry about that focus on the things you can do. But really build that engagement across the business to get feedback. And because you're going to need you know, people from finance, or HR or whatever it is. So really make sure to get them involved. And try not to look at it as just ticking boxes make it really relevant to where your business is at and the the kind of immediate areas that you want to improve on.

Katherine Ann Byam 14:28
Okay, this is fair enough. I want to ask another question about the carbon tracking. Do we all need to consider implementing an environmental management system? Is there a carbon app we can use? What's the best practice here?

Nancy Hyne 14:40
I think it is an important thing to do. Whether you go down a certification route with your environmental management system or not is by the by, but you can't really understand your impact or improve it if you don't have the numbers. So while it can feel a little bit daunting, it's really going to help you target particular areas. So, so often businesses come to me and they say, you know, we've got rid of plastic, we're reducing our waste, we don't really know what next, because they don't actually know the impact that, that's having, you know, they don't know, I worked with a company, I've been working with them for a couple of years, and we were looking at their overall emissions, and we found that, you know, something like 60, or 70% of their emissions came from their deliveries. So that gave us a real opportunity to go, okay, that's going to be our focus for the next 12 months, how do we reduce that? What are the ways that we can look at reducing that impact and improving our sort of environmental credential? So yes, it's really important that you have those numbers, and that you're tracking and monitoring that going forward, not just for the reduction, but so you can celebrate your wins as well. Otherwise, how do you know the impacts that you're having? So you don't necessarily need to have a certification to do that. But it's a really good starting point. And it feeds into what we call sort of materiality. Are you, what are the key aspects in your business that are influencing the people planet, so you know, again, being able to identify areas that have a big environmental impact, therefore, they are quite material in your business, and you need to, you know, start writing policies, you know, if it's travel, you know, maybe your business travel is quite high, that you have to go out and buy a whole fleet of electric vehicles, that's probably not feasible for most businesses overnight. But you can start implementing travel policies, or perhaps have a electric pool car that people can use. So it just gives you ideas for where your biggest impact is, and how you start to set targets and understand those numbers and where you have room for improvement.

Katherine Ann Byam 16:43
I agree, you're speaking to the converted definitely here and probably on the podcast in general, let's let's pivot to small businesses and social impact. Because I know, I know that you say that, you know, there's some assessments that look mainly at the social impacts and not necessarily at the environment, and therefore you spend a lot more time helping people to sort the environmental side. But in terms of the social impact, is there something more that small businesses should be thinking about contributing to, to sort of help the ecologi, but also the society around them?

Nancy Hyne 17:15
Yeah, and I think this is one again, where that engagement piece is key. Like if we if we think at the moment, cost of living is skyrocketing. So probably, if you have employees, they're a little bit nervous about how they're going to meet costs and things, start to ask the question, it's no good you kind of offering free yoga, if actually what they want to do is, they might need meal vouchers, or, you know, whatever it might be. So getting that engagement with your employees first as a starting point, what are the challenges you're facing? And how can we help? You know, being, giving them that financial security, I think is so important, paying a living wage, is a start, you know, how, what are the things that your employees need to feel secure, it's going to impact their mental health, from a community point of view, make it personal, yeah, you can go plant trees, if that's what you want to do. Great. That's a positive thing to do. But if there's things going on in your local region, I worked with a client recently, and they wanted to do something really community based, and I introduced them to the Solent Seagrass Project. So they're gonna go and sponsor, so if you're not aware, or if any of your listeners aren't aware. Seagrass has so much potential for sequestering carbon. And it's a fantastic, Solent's doing a lot of research here in the Solent region. But actually, there's seagrass projects across the country. And they felt that, that was really personal to them. It was part of their local community, they're a local business. So make it personal, like get people involved, get the engagement, what matters to the employees, in your company, and in your local community, all of these different groups of stakeholders, understanding what is important to them, and what they need from you, in terms of your social and environmental impact is really key. And it really helps to form a strategy that is relevant to the people that you impact.

Katherine Ann Byam 19:01
Yeah, absolutely. This one's kind of big. Do you think our current systems of politics and economics can adapt in sufficient time to help us keep warming to below one point five to two degrees? And I'm not asking you for what you hope for, I'm asking you for what you think.

Nancy Hyne 19:17
In a word? No, I don't, I don't think so. I don't think here in the UK, I can't speak globally, but I don't think here in the UK that climate action is as much of a priority as it should be at the moment, without dwelling too much on the stuff that's happening in number 10, at the moment. Yeah, I think we're not seeing policies that are going to really help us act. But that said, I almost think in a way it's irrelevant. Do we need to wait for legislation to act or are there enough businesses who care enough that they will act, particularly for small businesses, so there was a recent study by the British Business Bank and they found that that when it comes to UK businesses and the emissions associated with UK businesses, SMEs account for 50% of that, that is a big chunk of emissions that SMEs are responsible for. And genuinely when there's environmental legislation coming through SMEs fall below the sort of the, they're not caught up in that legislation, like the larger corporates are. So maybe it's time to stop waiting for legislation and just, people to start acting, we can do it without government if we need to, and actually sharing our journeys and encouraging others and showing how it can be done and being honest about the challenges that we're facing. And building that collaboration is so important. So maybe we don't need, I mean, the government should be acting, but maybe it's time to stop waiting for them and just to take matters into our own hands and start making these changes without waiting for them, and without waiting to see what policies they're going to implement. Because if nothing else, even if they implemented a load policies today, it would still take time to filter through and have an impact. And we're kind of out of time. So we need immediate action, even if that starting small, great start, start it, build the motivation and go from there. But I think we've got to stop waiting for government because it's we're not seeing enough of a push, and we need it, we need, we need people to just take matters into their own hands.

Katherine Ann Byam 21:21
So I like that response. And I'm gonna say something. So when I started in business three, four years ago, I remember thinking that at the time, I thought that people weren't aware of all the challenges. And you know, it's quite a lot to get your head around, because there's so many angles to this stuff. But actually, now I've come to think that it's not a lack of awareness that we're suffering from, it's okay, I've got to take care of me. And this is quite a challenge, right? And we're moving from a place of, oh, it's all abundance, you know, go out and conquer the world, because there's enough here for everyone. And let's just go take, and now people are realising maybe it's not like that, but they don't want to be left holding the bag. So even though they know a lot of people are still acting, let's say, out of integrity with the planet, what are your thoughts on how, how we shift that? Is it possible to shift it?

Nancy Hyne 22:16
For some, yes, I think for some, you know, there's just that element of, I don't care. If it's not directly impacting me, I don't care, which is kind of a sad place to be. But on the flip side, I have seen so many incredible businesses coming through who actually, their barrier isn't not caring, it's not kind of knowing where to start? Or how to make that first step or what, what are the big impact, impactful changes that they should be making? So I think there's been this, there's this real sense of judgement, when it comes to sustainability, everyone's quick to say, that's the wrong thing to do. You can't do this, you have to do this. And it's not helpful. In fact, I think it's a deterrent, and it stops people being able to share and ask questions and have conversations. And I think that's been a big problem. And I think the more that we see businesses thrive, and the impact the positive impacts they're having. And I've seen a lot of this, you know, on LinkedIn, I've seen stories about companies who are paying their workers, energy bills, and you know, all of this stuff, and we see it and we go, yeah, okay, there is change, there are people who care, and the more that people are talking about that sort of thing, and showing how we can do it differently and challenging what the norm is, the more people I think, will see it as a viable option. Not everyone, I'm sure, but it's going to build that momentum it's going to build, if we're a bit more accepting and where people are starting their journey from where they're, where they're at, at that point in time. I mean, I'm certainly not perfect. I'm not vegan, I don't drive an electric car, you know, there's a lot of things that I could change to, but if I stopped talking about, you know, or supporting other people, it's, it's kind of having the opposite effect that it should be. So we just need to be a little bit more understanding and a little bit more encouraging of others.

Katherine Ann Byam 24:21
Yeah, this, you remind me of a debate I had with someone a few months back, which was, I drive a diesel car, it's since 2016. I maintain it really well. So it's not like emitting more than it should, etcetera. I don't want to replace it because just, just taking a car off the shop floor is already costing so much in terms of resource extraction and conversion. And it's difficult to make these kinds of decisions, right. It's like you drive around as someone advocating for sustainability in a diesel car and everybody looks at you like; what? What are you doing, but, but it's more complex than that, right. And you know, how do we, how do we raise that awareness about all these things?

Nancy Hyne 25:06
Yeah, exactly that. And I think you've got to be a little bit thick skinned and be willing to put your hand up and say, I'm not perfect. I know, there's more things that I could do and, what you know, do I shop at shop on Amazon? Yes, I try to buy locally, and I try to support small business, but sometimes I, you know, there isn't an alternative that works, whether it's timings or price or whatever. And that's okay. It's about making the better choices when you can and working to improve. And the more that we do that, the more options are available to us, you know, we are going to rely on on technology, we need to, we need better tech to support what we're doing. And we have a lot of power in where we spend our money as an individual and as a business, the more that we support businesses that are doing things differently, the more that they can provide us with better alternatives. So yeah, I think, you know, we run the risk of beating ourselves up over every decision we make that isn't as sustainable as we'd like it to be. But to what end, you know, we're all sort of imperfect, it's all about imperfect sustainability, because of course, we have an impact. But how can we become more conscious in what we're consuming and and who we're buying from? And I think certainly with with COVID, it's just highlighted so many of these inequalities, and I guess the system is ultimately broken, so how do we start to shift that change? It's difficult, and it will take time, but to kind of keep again, in a similar way, getting better informing ourselves, you know, starting to learn about what other options are, and just being more vocal about what's out there and what's available.

Katherine Ann Byam 26:46
Yeah, it's, it's fascinating to me just to touch very lightly on the war in Ukraine at the moment, because that's having so many repercussions in Africa and around the world. But what I realised earlier this year, how many nuclear weapons that have been developed around the world, when we only need one or two, for things to be game over for all of us, it's quite amazing that we've allowed that level of investment in something so useless.

Nancy Hyne 27:15
Yeah. And something so terrifying.

Katherine Ann Byam 27:18
Yeah, and it just, it just makes me think that we definitely have issues with our priorities. And we're not likely to probably overcome these things. Which brings me to my next question, what adaptation strategies have you looked at, which might still bring us hope? If we can't manage the two degrees?

Nancy Hyne 27:37
This is such a difficult one. Because I think ultimately, we know that the results will be catastrophic. We just don't know how catastrophic. So we were joking earlier about, you know, does everyone go and build an ark? You know, what do we do? How do we manage this? And I think the reality is, we don't know, I couldn't tell you, as you were talking about some of these crazy ideas that people have folding work, maybe but how do we plan for something where we don't quite know what it looks like? You know, I think there will be, we're already seeing sort of climate, refugees, people who can't live and work and survive in the places they were in. I don't think there's a simple solution to that, or even a complex solution to that, I ultimately think that the result is going to be a lot of deaths. I don't know that there's a way we fix this after the fact, we need to be very focused, at the moment, I think, on how do we stop this happening in the first place? As far as we possibly can? Because I don't know what happens after that!

Katherine Ann Byam 28:37
Yeah, it's such a, it's such a challenging puzzle. And I feel on my side, i feel as if we need to do both. So we need to stop the damaging things. But we also need to prepare, because I think if we, from what I'm seeing, I'm struggling to see that we're going to do what we need to do, especially in the timeframe that we really should do it. You know, there's so many discussions about timeframes. And every scientific paper that I've read suggests that 2030 is already pushing it. Right. And we're talking 2040 2050, which 2035 for for the sale of diesel and petrol cars and stuff like this. And it seems too far away. It seems. I can tell you right now, in October in the UK, I'm still walking around in short sleeves when I go to the park, right, which is like, I've never done that before. This is the first year that I feel like yeah, like this is happening. So it's coming as you can, you can definitely sense that there's a big change afoot. And I feel as if we need to work towards adapting where we can, finding those solutions where we can reallocate people, I don't know, this if Ttis actually makes sense, but we need to find ways that we can redistribute and look at how we can adapt for those who really need it right now because there are a lot of people who are in dire circumstances at the moment but I'm gonna leave that there because it is quite a sad one. And I want to say what, what recommendations or small actions would you recommend to households to accommodate the changes that they need to make?

Nancy Hyne 30:11
Yeah, one of the biggest things you can do on a personal level is your money. Who do you bank with? Where's your pension investment? You know, you were talking about, you know, nuclear weaponry? Well, the chances are, if you haven't specifically opted out, your pension is invested in fossil fuels, it's invested in arms trading. And this is something that is becoming talked about a lot more. And it's a fantastic way to actually say, look, my money has power, and I'm not putting it in those things. I'm not supporting those things. So yeah, look at who you bank with where your investments are, pensions, things like that. But also consumption, you know, whether that's energy consumption, or the food we consume, or the waste that we produce, be a little bit more conscious of what you're buying. And what that means, again, it comes down to our money and the power that we have. And you know, we mentioned government, and yes, they're slow, but we need to be much more vocal about what we expect from government, I think a lot of people are probably frustrated with the goings on at the moment. But if we don't speak out, if we don't talk and raise our voices, again, that collective power is really important. And voting, please, please, please, you know, use your voice, we've been given it and you have an opportunity to, to shout about the things that are important to you. So use it and use it wisely.

Katherine Ann Byam 31:34
Okay, I want to bring us back to a positive note to wrap this up, because we've been going down a very dire place . And I really want to bring us back. So what I want to ask is share with us a campaign or company or someone who has inspired you in the last year or so in terms of the work that you're doing, or things that you've seen. And let's see what we can get from that example.

Nancy Hyne 32:00
There's a client that I've been working with for a couple of years now, they actually came to me after they got B Corp certified, because they went, what do we do now? How do we get better, and they are a coffee provider, they're really small business. So you know, a lot of times people go, we can't do things as a small business, we haven't got the budgets, we haven't got, you know, whatever it is, but you can and they're doing a lot of really fantastic work. I mean, the coffee industry is so complex. And there's a lot of injustices associated that the climate impacts are huge for the industry. And I love seeing the sort of passion and the ambition in what they're doing, and how they are really working hard to understand their impacts across the supply chain. And to really choose carefully who they work with. Some of their suppliers, for example, are helping farmers actually calculate whether they're making a profit or not, they've developed support and tools to help these farmers work out what it costs to live, and therefore what they need to be charging. They're taking the onus off and the risk levels, you know, if the farmer is not paid properly, and they're wiped out by a flood or a drought, for example, what do they do? And why is it fair that that one person takes all the responsibility in that supply chain, so the work that they've been doing and the projects that are going on supporting local communities and how they're empowering those communities, it's just really phenomenal. And it's, it's really fantastic to see. And it's hard work, you know, it's not an easy fix. But to see that sort of dedication and how it's really part of who they are as a business. And the core of what they do is really inspiring.

Katherine Ann Byam 33:34
Thank you for that. It gives me goosebumps, yes, to know that there are people who are trying to make a difference where it really matters, I, I've collaborated with a few handloomers in India, and they were trying to explain to me the supply chain for what they do, and how little of that benefit they actually receive. And, you know, they kind of work in sort of communities. And it's a bit like it almost feels as if this person who's co-ordinating them has to make sure that they have all the medication that they need and all this sort of thing because the income that they're making doesn't allow them to go to the hospitals or whatever it is right. And you realise that one of the ladies that I spoke to she wanted to use blockchain to help trace the whole supply chain etc. So that she could help those farmers more and I thought, wow, this kind of story really fills me with, with hope, right, that we can, we can use technology, we can use various things to try to make a difference in real people's lives. Yeah. And that matters.

Nancy Hyne 34:37
It matters so much. And it's raising that awareness as well. You know, I certainly is guilty of you know, seeing a fair trade sticker and assuming great I've done my bit. You know, there's more to it, we need people to know the challenges so that they can act and behave differently. But yeah, it's so inspiring to see, it fills me with so much hope it's great from a selfish perspective, it makes my job a lot of fun.

Katherine Ann Byam 35:03
On that note, what advice would you give to consultants starting in this area and wanting to do more to help,

Nancy Hyne 35:09
I think focus on your, where you're sort of niche where your talent is, you know, sustainability, responsibility affects everything that we do. Maybe it's diversity and inclusion, and maybe it's environmental impact. We're all coming at this from different areas. So we need different voices and different views and different skill sets. So work out what's important to you, what really, you know, if you're watching the news at night, what is the thing that makes you go, I really want to do something about that, and focus on that particular area, because we need that talent. And that passion is what's going to make you really good at that particular area. And we need that we really need that.

Katherine Ann Byam 35:47
Perfect, Nancy, it's been a pleasure, I think we've covered every possible base we could, and I've really enjoyed the conversation, let my listeners know how they can get in touch with you and work with you if they want to in the future.

Nancy Hyne 36:00
The best way to sort of find out what I do is LinkedIn, I'm pretty active on there. So you know, stalk me for a bit if you're not willing to send me an email straightaway. But otherwise, I'm happy to share my email address and website and people can go in and have a look. And yeah, I'm always open for a chat. So if you want to talk anything through; feel free,

Katherine Ann Byam 36:18
Wonderful. So you're going to find Nancy's details in the show notes. Thank you, Nancy, very much for joining us and see you soon on LinkedIn or in person. Yeah, hopefully.

Nancy Hyne 36:26
Thank you so much, Katherine for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam 36:28
Take care.

This podcast is brought to you today by the brand new Women In Sustainable Business Awards that kicks off in 2023. If you're a business owner who's starting a business with principles of sustainability in mind, and you want to preserve some lost skills, some handcrafting, artisanal work, or you're a social media manager supporting purpose driven brands, or you're creating fashion, or something that is relevant to the sustainability and green transformation, you are more than welcome to join us, and to get involved in these awards. Check out our group, on Facebook; Woman In Sustainable Business, or follow the podcast; Where Ideas Launch, on Instagram to find out more.