Explore Episodes

About this Episode

"Abundance is a lie, but it doesn’t have to be. We can all thrive on this planet, but it’s going to need us to rethink how we design our lives and the planet.”

Welcome to season 3 of Where Ideas Launch, where we explore how we build a better planet, one small business at a time. This is series is a guide to small and medium-sized eco businesses or green tech businesses.

Katherine Ann Byam is a consultant and strategic partner to leaders in SMEs on sustainability, resilience and business transformation.

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam  00:25

I got started in earnest on my sustainability journey in a classroom in Grenoble, France, the year was 2015. The topic was innovation, and frugal innovation to be precise. And the principles of frugal innovation were not actually foreign to me. My mother practiced them all her life. In fact, so much of who she was and still is, has become more precious to me as I navigate and build my services to support sustainable and impact-driven entrepreneurs like myself. Businesses continuously design new solutions for problems that come with an increase in price, but not always with an increase in value.

We've built a machine that's designed to make a few rich, and others, to keep them rich. In some countries, we don't really have a history of doing business any better. We move from the property of the crown to the property of the Lords and Ladies to the property of the privateers, pirates and the independent land owners that arose after the New World was discovered. Yet there are examples of designing social systems that work for business and society. So why don't we spend some time trying to study these?

This podcast is about addressing the problem of “how do we do business better?” not just taking a netzero box without substance behind it, without considering the social side of the story. So follow me down this road to build a better and greener business. When I started, they considered that there was no resource where I could find the complete big picture, the how to land firmly on my feet, as a sustainable business-minded person. There are pockets of information for sure, specializations in one domain of one area of the job, or another, but the experience of being an entrepreneur is not specialized or siloed and the challenges of being sustainable throughout your offer and your operations requires systemic and more integrated thinking.

Most entrepreneurs start solo or with a small team, and have jobs with multiple facets. To be successful, you need enough exposure across all the various aspects of the business that you're building, so that you can be prepared for the relentless stream of decisions you need to constantly make. Decision fatigue is absolutely real. In particular, when operating from a place of low trust. Low trust happens when brands, suppliers and service providers greenwash what they are doing. We don't want to be caught in a greenwash affiliation. If we are working hard to build an ethical reputation. So we need to do the checks and the disclaimers, to make sure that who we're working with stands up to the values that we ourselves have.

When I understood what this journey was going to be like, I began to prepare a manual to walk with me as I step through all the hurdles along the way. I wanted to solve the problem of where to start, and what to consider for the millions of people who want to make a positive impact but are overwhelmed by all the things that just come up. I wanted to create sign posts to great resources, templates, maps, and a navigation system to find the triple bottom line that's good for the planet, good for the people, and let's face it, what you need in your pocket. You're likely a specialist in an area, and you want to trade either a service or a product, or software as a service, perhaps in your zone of genius, while having a net positive impact on the world around you to round it off.

If you intend to start as a solopreneur, get prepared to be uncomfortable in your first six months, as you figure out the market, consumers, their behaviors and how to serve them better. More often than not, the product you start with is not the one that will make you ultimately successful. You also need to be prepared to pivot and reshape your offer as many times as needed for as long as it takes. I'm starting with the fundamentals and building forward from there.

Katherine Ann Byam  04:25

This episode and season is going to be a guide, but the workbooks that will come alongside it at the end of the season will really help you to personalize this for yourself and make the best use of what you're learning. It is widely acknowledged in the scientific community that we are in the Anthropocene epoch, where the activities of mankind have the most important impacts on the evolution of our planetary systems. The evidence for being in a new epoch has been building since the 1700s, but became clear in statistical records post the 1950s. What changed in the 1950s, is that we became a world with no wars, women contributing more equally to the economy and to growth, democracy and capitalism, and perhaps the most impactful of all mass marketing and advertising and increased use of synthetic Parliaments.

Most experts believe that given the boundaries of current tipping points to irrevocable climate change, we have between 10 and 15 years to radically change the way we operate in order to maintain the stable conditions that have led to the exponential growth that we have seen. The nine tipping points that you need to know about are the Amazon rainforest and preventing savanafication, and drought and converting that forest into a net carbon producer. We really need to look at that and make sure that it doesn't happen or it doesn't happen any more than it already has. Then we have the Arctic sea ice, and preventing the full melt that we now expect to happen during summertime. Atlantic circulation slowing down, is happening as a result of the other tipping points being shifted. So, the increased sea ice into the ocean is creating that slowdown in the current span.

The boreal forest decline, caused by fires and past changes, is also an area of concern. Coral Reef bleaching has been occurring everywhere on the planet at this point in time. And the Greenland ice sheet melting is another area of great concern. All sorts of permafrost thawing everywhere that it is can expose us to risk that we have not even understood yet. And the West Antarctica and East Antarctica ice sheets and the other final areas of tipping points that we need to be aware of. What this implies is that we need to make radical shifts, cutting your annual carbon footprint in both your personal and professional life by half every year is a start. But can we do it? I talk about these things because we need to understand when we get into business that it's not just for us.

When we get into business today, we need to think about our impact down the road, and how we're going to be influencing what happens for our kids for the next generation and for this blue earth that we all love. So I wanted to create that setting, but I also want to create another setting for you, which is a bit about the UN 17 Sustainable Development Goals. Okay. So beyond the Climate, the climate has other tipping points that haven't even been discussed yet, which is around the other aspects of social life. The UN 17 Sustainable Development Goals captures these very well.

They are: no poverty, zero hunger, good health and well-being, quality education, gender equality, clean water and sanitation, affordable and clean energy, decent work, and economic growth, industry innovation and infrastructure, reduce inequalities, sustainable cities and communities, responsible production and consumption, climate action, life below water, life on land, peace, justice, and strong institutions and partnerships for the goals. Of all of these platforms to leverage for change, which of these are impacted by your business. It is possible that your business has both positive and negative impact on more than one of these goals. The first thing to do is to know which. Can you articulate the impact, and in the long run, will you be able to measure the impact that you're having. Even if you've already started in business.

 This series aims to provide a supporting guide to position yourself to create the positive impact you want to, and to articulate it over time. There's also tremendous opportunity. We are all today creators and designers of a new economics, and a new way of interacting with the planet. The dominant solutions are, how are we able to convert to renewable sources of energy, how can we rewild and regenerate in nature and in our lives. How can we generate novel designs and creativity towards some of the solutions and problems that we face? And how do we use artificial intelligence, as well as bio engineering and technology to change the game. The growth of green tech solutions and advances in artificial intelligence can be truly transformational if well-guided in the context of complexity, and the risk we face as the dominant species on this planet. 

This episode was brought to you today by vehicle Business Growth club by Katherine. And by the space where ideas. Eco Business Growth club supports positive impact SMEs with coaching and community support to achieve the impact and reach they set out to meet. You can find out more by connecting with where it is launched on Instagram following the hashtag, where it is across all of your social Media.

About this Episode

Katherine Ann Byam MBA, FCCA, is a Business Resilience Coach and strategic partner to leaders on sustainability, leadership and digital transformation for marketing and operations.

This episode of the podcast covers Sustainable goal #8 Decent Work and Economic growth, a common thread of the podcast.

Katherine examines:

• Equality vs Equity

• Brewed Indecency

• The International Labour Organisations take on Decency

• And contracts that favour the larger of 2 entities

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam 0:01
Equality versus equity, I'm about to head off on vacation. But a few things have happened in the last weeks that have prompted me to record one more podcast before I take off to the coast of Cornwall without any access to my phone or my apps.

I'm really looking forward to this. But before I come to the many topics I want to discuss, I feel the need to bring us all on the same page on equality versus equity. There's a super popular meme that shows a father, a teenager and a toddler, looking at a game over a fence equality is represented by each having the same size of box to stand on. Yet the toddler still can't see the match.

Equity is represented by each having the size of crate or box relevant to enabling them the same experience. Now in another meme, they show a third option of this equation, which is capitalism where the fence is raised so that neither of them can see and so that they pay to have a seat in the stands. And yet another meme, there's a fence instead of a wall, where everyone can see through it. And this is labelled justice.

Now the point I really want to make here is that everyone you knew and everyone I knew once for basic things, respect, reassurance, recognition, and a sense of responsibility. When we act out of integrity, or out of alignment with any of these things, well, we are brewing in decency.

So speaking of brews, let's talk about BrewDog. For a moment, I've been following and watching James Watt for more than a year. And I've used his presence, his branding his public relations on LinkedIn, as an example for many of my clients, and how to show up consistently with a message that everyone resonates with. The company has supported the NHS, they've pledged to be carbon neutral, and from the outside, they're punching way above their weight and the impact that they are creating or have created on LinkedIn.

There's no reason to believe from the open letter that good and positive things haven't been achieved at the company. But at what cost and are these costs justified? Before we assess the cost, I want to look at what decent work means in reference to goal number eight of the UN 17 Sustainable Development Goals. Now there are four overarching ideas that we can bite our teeth into.

These are dignity, equality, fair income, and safe working conditions. Those four ideas are backed by three fundamental principles rights, inclusivity, and protection. Now, decent work is a key thread in this podcast and the work I do in sustainability consulting. So in both in treat, and invested in what is unfolding in this story, all of the principles, tenets and ideas here are subjective measures that leave a lot of room for GRI. The UN, for example, mentions equality and non equity.

So we can even poke holes in the concept of itself. But all of floored by our inability to measure them. So no matter what words we choose, we still have a problem of measurement. The only reasonable way to measure if dignity exists, if fair wages exist, if respect exists, or even recognition exist, or any of the other examples is to have full transparency.

 This means all the data being available, so everyone can interrogate it, we can all do the comparison, and we can all assess whether this exists. And then we need to be able to severe everyone on their perceptions of whether or not these conditions are being met. Transparency, unfortunately, remains an occlusion. Now let's get back to BrewDog. We have largely lost connection with the original founders of large companies in FMCG industries.

And it's perhaps easier to treat the company as the external presence that works to its own culture and rhythm that we don't assess, you know, largely I have lived and experienced my career as believing in this idea of a company in a culture that I could believe in. And I know many of us do.

But this idea of a company isn't real, it is all created, it is all perceived, and it is created by the people who found it and who run it. When a business is found to run. There's much more tied up in the public perception and the perception of the founder personally. This is usually inextricably linked from the company. What the open letter refers to as the cult of personality is therefore unsurprising.

All the way didn't speak to its veracity I've never worked there. But what the employees have described is not an experience uncommon to employees in many companies, if you read Glassdoor reviews, but when you build your brand on a foundation, you have to make sure that that foundation is well embedded. Public Relations starts with who, why, what? And the stories behind the founders and the founding story of the brand. A good publicist understands what the business owner wants to create and where it comes from. From this perspective, I consider the BrewDog public relations team to be exemplary. What appears to be missing is an alignment between the vision and the actual reality.

But as James rightly said, my fault he takes responsibility for the culture of the company. I also have tremendous respect for this paragraph where he says in his response, it's hard to hear those comments, but it must have been harder to see them. We appreciate that. And we will endeavour to honour that effort and courage with a real change of deserves. We aren't going to make excuses. We're going to take action. From our commitment to sustainability to a passion for bear BrewDog has always been defined by taking responsibility and continually improving, this is no exception.

Now it took a bit of a public bollocking and rolling over the coals as they say, to acknowledge a need to listen and to change. But we do have to celebrate this outcome for people who are working toward decent work in the world. I really want to congratulate the punks with Cooper's organisation for what they've done not just for BrewDog employees, but for employees everywhere, who need the courage to say enough is enough. And I'm going to take a stand.

So many employees around the world and indeed the UK are not free to speak their minds and have become slaves to their golden handcuffs and their lack of belief that they can start a new career or give up some of the comforts they have come to enjoy, because of indignities that they have suffered. To James what I see that we are all watching.

We are also rooting for you to set an even greater example than you've done with your public relations to what you will now do to transform your organization's internal culture so that the values of decency tribe shine right true. Beyond James and the BrewDog. travesty, the International Labour Organisation explains the challenges we face globally on the decent work front employment growth since 2008, has averaged only 0.1% annually compared with 0.9%.

Between 2002 1007 Over 60% of all workers like any kind of employment contract, fewer than 45% of wage and salaried workers are employed on a full time permanent basis. And even that share is declining. By 2019, more than 212 million people will be out of work up from the current 201 million and 600 million new jobs need to be created by 2030. Chess to keep pace with the growth of the working age population. Now, these stats are a bit dated, but they're still relevant.

So what do we do? Well, many of us start businesses and season three of this podcast is going to be all about building a business from the ground up going from idea to see you. But starting businesses is also not the full answer because the exam question is much bigger than this. How do we balance what we need for the well being of people, plants, pets and other organisms on the planet in such a way that we achieve a sense of belonging, of contribution of personal and vocational growth, and of economic growth, because we all perceive this as a necessary thing.

We can debate this. Now this is the challenge that we face in levelling up those who are not having a decent quality of life, and those who have more than what they need. Now, before I close, I want to speak about something closer to home for me. A few weeks back, a small but still significant consultancy, started discussions with me to join them as an associate on their team. You know, initial conversations, the CEO of the company joked, let's sign the contract and put it in a dark place never to be looked at again.

 Contracts are complicated little beasts, and they are generally not needed in good times. It's when times get bad that they become the first thing anyone reaches for. To suggest, therefore, that a contract is something that could sit in a dark place never to be looked at again, is a mark of professional disrespect. And as such, I was pretty sure I knew how this relationship would turn out.

As I could already tell we had different values. I received a 35 page contractual document assigned from this company stipulating our rights. Yet none of these terms favoured me or acknowledged the unique skills I honed on my own before encountering this company skills that they do not currently have. Still unlikely The previous time I received the contract of this nature, I decided not to simply throw the contract in the Delete bin along with the relationship. But instead I chose transparency.

And there's that word again, I chose to disclose what I would be doing with this document, before I considered signing it. I advised this guy, that there were a few clauses that were not satisfactory to me, and that I'd have my lawyer check it because I didn't want to misspeak. I received no response from that meal. My lawyers no spring chicken, it took her 30 minutes to hone in and respond to the red flags in the contract.

She told me the following. I have reviewed the agreement and do find that more one sided than normal, and answer to your question, there is no guarantee of any work or even if the rate of PII, they reserve the right to reduce the fee from the scheduled periods if they have a business need or a given a client volume discount or a bulk discount, and you have to wait over a month for payment. You're giving up the intellectual property in what you work on, and provide for them, and you be restrictions, you have to give them longer notice when they gave you and you were bearing the risk and liability if something goes wrong.

 I asked the owner about his willingness to negotiate and that my lawyer would like to mock up some revisions on a Word version of the contract. And his response was this, I have reflected on our exchanges and your request to edit our contract and negotiate in quotations on its tunes. I think it best if we pause our relationship for now, my sense is that you expect a far more formal relationship than we are used to. We have never operated like this in over 20 years. And it does not feel right to start a relationship on such a formal footing. Now,

I wish you the very best of luck in your endeavours and perhaps we can pick up a discussion at another time. Dude, I will tell you this, without an apology for your disrespect, there will be no other time. Many people signed contracts like these because they are scared of not being able to take care of their family of not getting another opportunity elsewhere, of not being able to show up the way they need to. And to get the great opportunities that are perhaps just a stretch away. I am not that person. The first thing in any relationship for me is whether or not my fundamental core values can be upheld in that relationship.

My fundamental core values are rooted in freedom, equity and decency. When these are not present, no feasible working relationship as possible. It's that simple. If you want to make changes, you need to be prepared to speak up and say what's not right with the world around you. Even if it excludes you from that will by default. We don't get to inclusion, by not expressing an opinion that is not inclusion, that is a false sense of let's all go go along with the stream. Alright, so I think I have covered the full spectrum of things related to decent work. If you have any queries on this topic, do feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn.

I'm always open to connections and conversations. If you've enjoyed this podcast over the past nine months and the last two seasons, do let us know by giving us a rating, reviewing and commenting on the stories that have meant something to you and share with us anyone you believe would be a good fit for the show, and whose views you would like to be represented on the show. One challenge I faced in finding guests is the diversity of the lineup. But I am proud that there is a broad international representation on the show. I urge you to participate connect with me, as I mentioned on LinkedIn, start a conversation because who knows where that conversation may lead. Thank you for listening to these past two seasons.

And we're coming in just two weeks with a full season three of the show. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for listening. This podcast was brought to you today by career sketching with Katherine Ann Byam and the space where ideas launch. Career sketching is a leadership development and coaching brand offering personalised career transition and transformation services. This space where ideas launch offers high performance, leadership coaching and strategy facilitation to businesses in the food and health sectors. To find out more contact Katherine Ann Byam on LinkedIn

About this Episode

Becky Baines is a teacher and single mum to two enthusiastic young boys, living is North Essex. She established her eco-fundraising business, The Ink Bin, in 2019 as a direct result of trying make an impact towards issues of climate and recycling as well as raising valuable funds for schools and charities across the UK. She now works tirelessly to save home-use ink cartridges from landfill and, to date, has recycled approximately 30,000 products destined for landfill.

Becky has stuck firm to her teaching roots and produces a wealth of free, downloadable resources for young people interested in environmental matters. Her latest project is encouraging busy teachers to set up Eco Councils or Eco Clubs within schools by giving easy step-by-step weekly resources and ideas as well as starting points for weekly discussions in schools.

With twenty years of working in schools, Becky recognizes that young people are in an excellent position to create new routines at school and at home which will have a lasting environmental impact as well as hopefully reaching a more mindful life.

The business which she has created works on a Community level, whereby schools; charities and plastic-free groups can place The Ink Bin within a local area and collect home-use ink cartridges on a wider scale. This is increasingly relevant now that 67% of us say we intend to remain working from home at least part of the time post-Covid19. Most of the products sent to The Ink Bin can be refilled and thus reenter the Circular Economy- the ideal environmental solution. This model allows The Ink Bin to give money back for certain cartridges and schools have raised anything up to £550 on an individual basis in the past year.

Becky’s latest campaign has seen businesses place The Ink Bin within their offices to collect employees’ home-use ink cartridges as they move to a more split working routine between office and home. One of the latest national businesses to sign up have placed Ink Bins across their regional offices in support of the homeless charity Emmaus UK. Businesses are asked to sponsor The Ink Bin installation and then services are free after that; with the freedom to choose their own charity of choice.

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam  0:02  

Becky, welcome to Where Ideas Launch.

Becky Baines  0:44  

Hello, welcome. Thank you. Good morning. Thank you for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam  0:56  

Wonderful to have you, Becky. Why is it important that we address ink disposal in your view? Why is this such a passion for you?

Becky Baines  1:04  

And I think obviously, we're on a journey where we need to be thinking about everything we use. But I think for me, ink is something that is an essential part of our lives that we can't do without and at present technology means that it still has to be in plastic. And the other thing about ink is the fact that they are actually so easy to recycle. They are likened to a refillable water bottle. So as long as they go into a factory, they can be refilled up to six times. So for me, it's about spreading the word to people that it's okay and very, very easy to recycle them. It's also something that we're selling so much of in the UK. We're selling 45 million units every year and 80% of those go straight into landfill, which is just unnecessary.

Katherine Ann Byam  1:55  

Well, that's a really big number. Yeah, tell me a little bit about where you have these services available now in the UK and how your business is set up?

Becky Baines  2:06  

We started off mostly focusing on schools and charities. So I created the ink bin as such, which is a lovely cardboard bin, which gets personalised for each individual organisation that works with us. We started by sending out ink bins across schools, charity shops, various different places, and the local community would then bring their ink cartridges and drop them in. As we grow, we're getting more and more interest from local councils, retail outlets, chains, and all sorts who are keen to actually put the ink bin across all of their different stations.

Katherine Ann Byam  2:48  

And what's been the biggest struggle for you and getting all this going? I can imagine you've had a few.

Becky Baines  2:54  

We've had a few, I think keeping the resilience going. I think COVID really was difficult for us. And as it was our second year of business as well. It was just keeping the faith that actually we are doing something really special and to keep going. And it's proven that the last few weeks actually since things are opening up more. All of a sudden the business is going where I very much hoped it would be. But I think it has been that resilience to keep going on the days when we're working so hard and you keep having the message that we love what you're doing. But we can't do it with you because of COVID.

Katherine Ann Byam  3:37  

Yeah. And how have you balanced this with your teaching life? I can imagine that's also complicated.

Becky Baines  3:42  

Yeah, it is. So I still teach every morning. And I do that via zoom now. And I have a wonderful student who I work with. But yes, it's been a real struggle to balance everything. And especially because anybody who knows me will know I'm so passionate and enthusiastic that I take on every new project that comes my way. So really, I guess what has fallen by the wayside is any sort of personal life or time for myself.

Katherine Ann Byam  4:13  

 And how are you incorporating this into the teaching work that you do?

Becky Baines  4:22  

I think I try and incorporate it into the teaching, but I think it's been the other way around more so that the teaching has completely impacted the journey The Ink Bin has taken and we do tireless work with schools. And we're very, very set up to work with schools because I understand what busy places they are. So I make the systems very much fit into them rather than having to fit in around us, but also working tirelessly with educating young people on matters of sustainability. We produce weekly newsletters for anyone who wants to read them, but they talk to really five to eighteen year olds. And I am at the moment on the committee for the Eco culture Stir Festival, which is happening in September, running the educational side of things. So I think it's a case of once a teacher, always a teacher, and I think anybody who starts to look into the business will see that it has had a huge impact on how the event runs.

Katherine Ann Byam  5:26  

And you mentioned that but what is your team like?

Becky Baines  5:31  

The team is very small, it was very small. And I say we because actually at the moment it is pretty much me and my two fabulous children who spend their lives groaning that we have to go out to another event, or mommy has to sit and go on another zoom call. And we are in the process of getting a kickstart with an employee, which I'm thrilled about, and in the process, also of looking to employ some young people around the local area to help with the educational provision as well.

Katherine Ann Byam  6:03  

That sounds really, really fascinating. Yeah. And, what gets you into sustainable design and the circular economy? What was the inspiration for you?

Becky Baines  6:14  

And I think, I think, like so many people, I'm passionate about what's going on in our world and the changes that are happening, and I'm a mom of two young children. I want them to grow up in a beautiful world. So I think when I came across a business that can help the environment, and help schools and charities to fundraise, it was a win-win for me. But then, the more I engrossed myself in the sustainability world and the more that I developed my understanding of the circular economy, the more I’m just hooked. I'm passionate. It's common sense. It's just a wonderful, very, very simple concept.

Katherine Ann Byam  7:00  

Yeah, that's brilliant. And in terms of these eco councils and eco clubs, what have you gotten from those so far? How many of those have you been able to implement and how are they progressing?

Becky Baines  7:11  

Again, COVID has been such an issue for us. So we have lots and lots of people wanting to be engaged. We work with schools that already have eco clubs, but sadly, haven't really been able to run them. And I think so much of being an eco-club is actually young people getting together and bouncing ideas off of each other or going outside and doing something practical together. At the moment we are just waiting for September. I'm so excited for September to come when I think there's going to be an explosion of environmental understanding and passion. And I'm really really hoping that come September, we can get hundreds of new eco clubs inspired to start up.

Katherine Ann Byam  7:59  

Wonderful. And in terms of your, your spread across the UK, how far across the UK. are you now?

Becky Baines  8:06  

Oh, it's funny. I was asked this question the other day, and I realised we have ink bins in all four corners of the UK. We're not so much in Ireland at the moment, but we have them up in Glasgow and Dumfries. We have them in Abergavenny. We're on the east side. So there's lots and lots in the east-end region. And we're down as far as Devon and Cornwall as well. So everywhere which is wonderful.

Katherine Ann Byam  8:32  

And are you thinking about collaborating wider to get more into like Ireland or you know?

Becky Baines  8:39  

Absolutely, absolutely. We would absolutely love to work with anyone that we can work with completely.

Katherine Ann Byam  8:48  

And what would you say to other entrepreneurs who are starting a purpose-driven mission? So for example, I run a community of 2400. I think it grows every day with women in sustainable business who are trying to make an impact wherever they are. What would you say to them in terms of continuing this journey?

Becky Baines  9:07  

I think resilience has been a huge thing for me, but I also think believing in what you're doing is the hugest thing. Last year, June COVID, there were so many times when I sat with my head in my hands thinking, why am I carrying on with this when my poor children aren't getting me? I could be spending this time playing a board game with my children. But it was the belief that I was doing something really special that kept me going. And I also think that we're in such an exciting time with sustainability at the moment that things are moving on so rapidly. That it's not a daunting prospect to immerse yourself in it and learn and become knowledgeable very, very quickly. I'm speaking with so many people at local councils and other organisations at the moment who are only just beginning of understanding what the circular economy really is. So I would say to anybody who is interested in sustainability that it's not too late to join the party. It's an exciting time.

Katherine Ann Byam  10:26  

And I noticed that your business model involves the charity space as well. So tell me a little bit about how you're managing the financing and getting all this stuff working. Tell me a little bit about that. Because it's also interesting for a lot of people.

Becky Baines  10:40  

Yeah we are able to because certain cartridges have got some value, we're able to give money back to charities. We started this with very, very little investment, a little bit of investment from my family. And other than that, we have worked on an absolute shoestring. And I jokingly say that we've been a cottage industry, but we live in a little cottage on the edge of Essex, and there have been ink cartridges all over my house for the last two years. And I think we've been very careful with how and when we've grown, we now have a large office space. But we didn't take that on until we knew we could afford it. We're now at the stage where we can afford to take on a member of staff but we haven't run too quickly.

Katherine Ann Byam  11:30  

Yeah, that's great. And have you had support from local bodies? Have you had support from councils, for example, or other government grants? 

Becky Baines  11:40  

No. We haven't, sadly. We've been looking into it. But I'm not as of yet. We're trying to get some sizable grant opportunities and I think that is in the pipeline. But very much it's been running as a very small business and building organically. We have had interest from local councils who are wanting to buy our ink bins and gift them out to the schools. We actually have just launched with sustainable schools. Leicester who bought 14 bins from us and then gifted them to 40 schools in Leicester. And I'm hoping that will grow as well.

Katherine Ann Byam  12:21  

Okay, that's interesting. Who are the suppliers that are contributing the most to your ink recycling stock?

Becky Baines  12:41  

We work with lots and lots of groups. And the one thing that I think is quite unique about us and not the most entrepreneurial thing, but certainly the most sustainable thing that we do is we will accept any home use cartridge even if they are not profitable for us, which then actually appeals to wider groups such as Terracycle groups, and particularly environmentally friendly schools who have already maybe been down the journey and been doing in cartridge recycling for a long time, but they choose to come to us because we will accept a cartridges such as an Epson cartridge or a Brother cartridge. And we also don't provide the plastic envelopes which a lot of the more sustainable groups we work with like. So I would say one of the big groups that we've had nice success with is people passionate about plastic, people wanting to do the recycling strains. And the added bonus for them is that they can make some money for their group out of it.

Katherine Ann Byam  13:48  

Alright, I think I'm going to ask the question slightly differently because it's an interesting answer. And I might need to go back and edit my question. But when you think about Epson and Brother and stuff like that, who's the biggest contributor to that stock of recyclable cartridges? Then basically what can you do with them? So let me ask it again, right. Okay. So which company contributes the biggest stock of recyclable ink cartridges for you and have you considered working with them?

Becky Baines  14:25  

And at the moment, about 60% of what comes through are Canon and HP. About 20 to 30% of that of our overall stock are the inkjet cartridges which we can refill and give money back for. We also have an awful lot of Epson cartridges come through. And other companies such as Brother, Kodak, not quite so much. And we are working towards working with these companies. I actually have had a phone call from a couple of them over the past. As we grow, let's hope that we can work in partnership with them.

Katherine Ann Byam  15:03  

I think that would be a really good strong message as well. Getting that responsibility to look back, it's all part of the circular model anyway. 

Becky Baines  15:14  

It's an absolute joy. Yeah. And the more joined-up thinking what we can all do is for the greater good, isn't it? 

Katherine Ann Byam  15:21  

Wonderful, really good. Thank you so much, Becky. And if you have any closing words or last advice that you want to give to my listeners about either getting involved in this space or continuing?

Becky Baines  15:33  

I think the biggest thing that I'm passionate about is engaging young people. So we now have two websites, we have theinkbin.co.uk and we have theinkbinschools.co.uk. I would encourage anyone with children in their lives or young people in their lives to head over to the website and have a look at the newsletters and other resources. They're all completely free. We do it out of love rather than profiteering. And just please have a look. Contribute if you would like to and let us know your thoughts.

Katherine Ann Byam  16:04  

Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. Thank you

About this Episode

Using the TECK method to improve your supply chain sustainability and resilience, from our host Katherine Ann Byam, Business Resilience Strategist & leadership Coach.

TECK Stands for Transparency, Energy, Circularity and Knowledge. Tune in to learn more, and share your thoughts with us! We are on instagram @whereideaslaunch

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam  0:01  

Today's session is about sustainable supply and sourcing. And before I get into what we could be doing to solve this problem of sustainable supply and sourcing, I need to tell you why this matters.

Now, we are using resources at 1.7 times their rate of natural regeneration. We have become less efficient at converting those resources that we extract from the ground than we were, let's say in the 1980s compared to today. And part of this is because we have changed the source of supply. Most of the world aspires to be at the level of wealth of let's see, for example, the US.

Now as people aspire to have more and to grow more in terms of wealth on an average scale, we're going to demand more of those resources than we have in the past. Climate change will also render many places uninhabitable, starting, let's say in the 2040s, to 50s. And this will invoke mass migrations and a number of other economic and social challenges that we expect will emerge. Technology can give us solutions if we use it in the right way. And there are also projects underway all around the world to rewild nature in some form or fashion in order to get us to a point where we can move the needle on what we've been putting into the atmosphere in terms of carbon with a very, very urgent timescale for change that we need to commit to.

A lot of customers are becoming more savvy. So as we get into the marketplace, we're starting to see a greater demand for a greater need for knowledge around things that are sustainable. I think customers since the global pandemic, have really started to reflect on what it means to them to live on this planet. The recognition that there's only one blue planet that we have that we can currently inhabit makes this need to do something that much more urgent.

We have also seen things like vaccine capitalism come under real attack because still, we are developing the world and we're developing this planet on the notion of nation-states, where the situation that we're in today, it's so globally interconnected that some of these decisions can no longer be taken on a national level. realistically. Yes, we can still take it on a national level. But will we have the impact? Will we have the same efficacy if we take decisions on a nationalist level?

So these are questions that consumers are starting to ask. Now, in some countries, there are no furlough protections like we have in some of the Western countries. So there's no social protection around the issues that have emerged from the pandemic, including the loss of jobs, the loss of tourism, etc. Now, wealth inequality is rampant and growing.

There are something like 2700 billionaires who own enough to be the biggest country by GDP. And it's only getting worse. The number of people that represents 2,700 billionaires is less than .0005% of the planet. Netflix has been doing a great job of educating people around the topics of sustainability, with independent films such as “Seaspiracy” and “Cowspiracy.” And there've also been a number of interesting films on Amazon, for example, “Living the Change.” And what these are doing is creating a movement in people's minds that they need to do something different, that they need to be more responsible, and that they need to make different choices about their food, and about their repurchase of things and how many things they want to accumulate, how they dispose of their things.

But we're going to talk a little bit about how we can make our supply chains more sustainable for this purpose so that we can address the needs of our customers. Another anecdote that I'd like to share with you, I was talking to a friend of mine who runs a group on Facebook, and he told me that he started his group, it's called Sustainable Living in 2014, and by 2020, much he had 3000 people in his group by September 2020. He had 65,000 people in his group. Today, he has 75,000 people in his group and this shows that there's been a huge shift of people looking for sustainable solutions groups that have sustainability in their name on Facebook have been growing exponentially.

My own group of women who are running sustainable businesses has grown by 100 a week for the last month. And it's starting to accelerate. So this is really becoming a thing. There are ways for us to go about checking our carbon footprints, etc, as people as individuals, freeways, which is also helping to expand the knowledge and make people more aware.

So now I want to get into exactly what we can start doing in our supply chains to think through this sustainability equation. I think about it as tech. And I will explain what tech means it has four elements to this sustainability puzzle. It is transparency, energy, circularity, and knowledge. And I'm going to go into each of these topics so that you understand what you could be doing differently in your supply chains to make a difference.

The first point you need to know about transparency. It's about making a statement; making a statement to see what you definitively stand by when it comes to elements of the whole sustainability puzzle. Sustainability, as you know, it has many different angles, we can start with the human side of the thing. Are we against modern slavery in all of its forms? Are we paying our workers a living wage? Are people able to survive based on the contracts that we're giving them? Is all contracting fair?

That's a key part of the transparency debate, and we should be having that publicly available on our websites. How is the ratio of CEO pay to the lowest-paid worker in organisatio? What's that ratio like? And how we preserve certain reasonableness with that ratio also dictates how transparent and how respectful we are of the human side of the story. Then we have revealed things about our suppliers themselves. So as we supply, we also have suppliers and our suppliers should also be following some of the rules that we have determined are necessary to be an ethical company. So we need to think also about our suppliers.

We also need to think about the way our products are disposed of. Transparency is about communicating what solutions are there to recycle the products that we sell. Getting into this further, you can go the certification route.  And the certification route gives other people, your customers and suppliers etc, an idea of who you are if you have a certification that states basically the rules that you have agreed to comply with. This already goes part of the distance, I say part of the distance because certifications have been challenged through their ability to truly verify what's happening.

There are two certifications that are very popular at the moment in this space, which are the fair trade certification and the B Corp certification. Both of these are useful in terms of progress because they do assess quite a wide variety of topics. You can become certified without having all of the boxes ticked. And this is where these certifications can come in the challenge at times. But the idea is that you set a roadmap for yourself as to the things that you want to accomplish. And as you accomplish them, your ranking will increase. So it's a good idea to get involved with finding good ways to be transparent about the good things that you're doing and also to be transparent about the things that you're still progressing. Both sides are important. It's not just a topic of greenwashing. Now we get to energy. Energy is the second in the tech framework and energy for us. - it's really about where you're sourcing the energy to convert your products, how aware you are about the usage of energy in your organisation, and how efficient you are on the usage of energy and the things like your website. So it's not just about the physical product itself, but it is about what's happening in your offices and your website, how heavy is it to load for customers. All of these things need to be validated and checked before we can see that we are truly energy efficient.

So it's not just about the choice of our energy provider. It is also about how we're returning energy to the system. It's also about how efficient our entire systems are to carry out the work that we asked of it.  To see in tech is about circularity and the key question here is how are you sourcing your materials, and can your sources be recycled? And this is essential because we need to be able to communicate to our customers what they need to do to dispose of that product. We also need to think about how we can create a second-hand market for that product. And a number of companies have done this. So they do buy-backs, they do sell secondhand versions of their products. And this needs to be something that we go deeper and deeper and further into, especially if we can make that product more efficient to use in terms of energy. So as much as we can recycle and reuse and change and shift even if it is, you know, scrapping the thing for parts and Using that into the process. Minimising waste is a key part of what we need to do.

Also, using different types of plastics will allow the things to be able to return to the earth, for example, and break down more efficiently as well as being able to reuse them in other products. The other bit of circularity is about your supply chain responsiveness to being able to collect things.

So I have a great business model. Someone I've interviewed on this podcast, the model that she uses is that she gives her product in bottles, and then she's able to collect the used bottles when you make a reorder. All of this is important to your customer, they need to know how to end the life of that product that they've purchased. If you have a circular model designed or some links to other companies who will provide that recycling for you, you need to communicate that. The last letter in the tech framework for supply chain resiliency is knowledge.

Knowledge is about how you're communicating with your employees, your customers, and all your stakeholders about what's key to be measured in your space around sustainability and its goals. So if we think about the UN Sustainable Development Goals and that framework of 17 goals, there's a lot there that we could be sharing and tailoring to our organisation. And this is about real education and real change as opposed to greenwashing. So it's not about CSR and PR featuring what you're doing. Because that comes under real attack. It's about making real changes, communicating but making real changes, and also communicating where you have not yet made changes and what you're planning to do.

This is where we start winning the respect of people who are interested in purchasing our products. So this brings us to the end of the tech framework. I hope that was useful in setting up how you can think about your supply chain for the future. Please follow my future episodes where I will be talking about the supply chain in more detail. Thanks so much for listening.

Thanks for listening. This podcast was brought to you today by career sketching with Katherine Ann Byam and The Space Where  Ideas Launch. Career Sketching is a leadership development and coaching brand offering personalised career transition and transformation services. The Space Where  Ideas Launch offers high-performance group leadership coaching and strategy facilitation to businesses in the food and health sectors.

To find out more contact Katherine Ann Byam on LinkedIn.

About this Episode

Gjorgji Rafajlovski (Gogo)  is the Operational Director @SEEUTechPark in North Macedonia and an IP Consultant who helps entrepreneurs and innovative startups reach their maximum potential.

With an ongoing 15+ years of a successful career in managing start-up Ccnters, Incubators, Accelerators & TechParks, Gogo has built-up a portfolio as an experienced business consultant & mentor, passionate about technology & brands.

 His background includes Operations Management, Startup Investments, Intellectual Property, Business Valuation, Innovative Growth. When he’s not supporting a world-changing start-up business, he loves outdoor sports!

We discussed how tech parks support start ups, the importance of IP, and we debated open innovation. Have a listen!

Connect with Gjorgki on Linkedin:

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Connect with Gjorgki

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam  0:00  

GoGo Welcome to where it is lunch. It's such a pleasure to have you on the show. I really want to understand all about cu tech Park, and what you've been doing in North Macedonia. Tell me a little bit about how the tech Park has positively impacted business and startup investment in your country.

Gjorgji Rafajlovski  0:46  
Yeah, sure. So basically, the SEEUTechPark story began back in 2013. And it kind of started as a pilot project of the university. By the way, we are a private university overthink the first private university of everything here in North Macedonia. And we, we had this idea to start simulating the startups, the investment potential in and innovations through students and young people here in North Macedonia, and try to boost them into developing new startups and new tech tech businesses that has the potential to grow into change the world we live in. So basically, back in 2013, we kickstarted as a as a pilot project.

And then two years later, we incorporated ourselves as a Technology Park, actually, SeeUTechPark, and we started developing our own internal ecosystem, with men, we can boost our creativity and innovation. And then we became self sustainable actually, even today, we are one of the few organisations that have its sustainability as a as a core business value. And I think that's important because if you if you try to teach, especially young people, and innovators in becoming a real businessman and developing their own business, you should not just talk the talk, but you should also walk the walk. And this this system actually helped us to become more community-based and become more recognisable in our country as one of the few organisations that actually has the potential to commercialise your product and to bring added value.

Through this year, we specialise in many tailor-made services and products. And we kind of became a trademark for something that can be widely recognisable, not just in North Macedonia but in the whole region. And these are the two separate services that we provide. One is startup valuation or a company valuation. We do this as a third party, between investors and startups, wanting to raise money, and then another services, IP. So intellectual property. This is a we think is also something that can be introduced, and it should be introduced to all startups, especially in those startups, talking with investors talking with Parisian partners that want to expand their businesses and to become global players.

So basically, these two services are kind of unique to our ecosystem. And we we kind of added it to our everyday programmes and other services that are more or less equal, like every other technology parkour accelerated through the years. Seven and eight years along the path, I think we have accomplished good results in starting helping young enterpreneurs and startups reach their maximum potential. And nowadays we have helped more than 30 companies from from our country. Actually 13 out of them are still located that our technology, so they're located with our university, and we've created directly more than 150 new technology jobs which are boosting the national economy and the IP system in particular.

Katherine Ann Byam  5:16  
This is a wonderful story. And really important to see how these, this innovation that you're doing is helping to grow businesses, not just in North Macedonia, but compared to the entire region as well. So this is fascinating to see, I wanted to ask a little bit more about intellectual property is this is to areas of particular specialisation. And I want to understand why this is important, first of all, and at what stage of development should young startups be getting into IP protection?

Gjorgji Rafajlovski  5:50  
Yes, that's a very good question or two questions. I will start with a second one. At what stage do the startups need to think and to implement IP? I would say in the very beginning of developing your product or service, even before you create a company. Why is this because a lot of startups, even nowadays, think that intellectual property is something that you can add on along the path as you're developing your business idea, or a product or a service. But it's, it's not a single event thing.

So basically, intellectual property is something that you think of you plan and you implement during the whole journey of upgrading your startup. Because if you're waiting for the perfect conditions, to draft, to plan, and to implement some sort of IP, it won't happen ever. So basically, you have to start thinking about intellectual property as an asset to a company and to your product or service. So in terms of when they should start thinking about protecting the IP, I would say that even before you launch your product or service, you have to have some sort of IP strategy.

IP strategy is not something that you can immediately protect but see how certain things can develop in the certain way that in the future, you can have your assets and your IP working for you and for your business. Having in mind the first question as tp why it is important, only IP is is the asset that doesn't depreciate over time. So basically, the more you use it, the more value it gets. And the IP is the core thing that your business is unique for. So basically, every other thing that you have, business wise for a startup, let's say the office, the desk, the software, the computer, or a prototype can be easily copied,  IP, the core of the IP is your your uniqueness at work, and what you're bringing, as a unique point, to the community and to your customers.

And that's why it is important. Nowadays, globally, more than 80% of all assets worldwide, are IP assets are intangible assets. So basically everything else that we see around us, surrounding every business is less likely to be to be copied if it's IP protected. So that's why I think I'm very pro on on on developing intellectual property that can boost your business, and then can bring unique value to both your product enter your investors, and for sure, you should think of how is the best way to protect it and to to give added value to your product or service.

Katherine Ann Byam  9:36  
It's a really important point and very interesting point. And I'm going to challenge you now. And my challenge is that there are some that argue that a more open source approach is better for for innovation, and the greater good. So if we take for example, you know, Elon Musk and what he did with Tesla, or even a more recent example, with the ongoing debate around the COVID vaccines, what are your thoughts on whether or not we should embrace some element of openness when we're creating things that are new and game changing for the planet?

Gjorgji Rafajlovski  10:16  
Yes, even nowadays, with the global pandemic, this is a more like, floating or open question that should be answered. But I'm personally very pro of intellectual property and the protection and let's say the benefits used by the system. But let me put it this way, you have this innovation system that somehow should be protected, you cannot have both extremes.

The first extreme is everything should be free, not protected at all. So anybody can use it. And it's another good thing for the free economy and for the in the Premiership. If someone could store your business or a product or a service that you've been researching or investing in for months or years, in the back end, you have this uniqueness, that that you should be able to commercialise it and you should be able to put this on the market and have a have a good return of investment for it. And so basically IP gives you a certain time for your business to commercialise a product or a service and then be the only player in the market for it, protecting you and your investment and your know-how and everything you put into a business for a certain period of time. It's not infinity, but it surely gives you an opportunity to get the investment back.

The other hand, the extreme opposite on the other side would be everything should be protected forever so you couldn't use anything without any approval from inventors. So, basically this is also extreme and it cannot be done, it would also hurt the economy and the inventors. So the perfect balance would be to boost innovativeness, to give people opportunity to patent, to protect, and to invent certain things, but also give give them just enough freedom to be able to commercialise it and not to put a forever mark on their products.

So basically, this is the fine balance between open innovation and too much protected innovation. At the end of the day, I will say that there are very positive towards the system that actually rewards something that is new, that is unique, and that could solve a person or a business problem. And and yes, you have to have a business opportunity to commercialise this kind of inventions in order to keep the wheel spinning.

Katherine Ann Byam  13:26  
Yeah. What specifically should we be thinking about when we're starting to think about IP protection? So what things can we protect? And what can we not protect?

Gjorgji Rafajlovski  13:38  
Basically, IP protection is very territorial. So you can protect a certain thing on a certain territory. So there is no uniqueness to what you can protect worldwide when we're talking about inventions. When we're talking about copyright, and we're talking about the software, it's pretty much protected from the moment that it has been created. So basically, it's some kind of universal protection.

 You can always protect something that is a real invention that is new and is a breakthrough technology and then it has a market potential. People are trying to buy. You cannot protect something that is in plain nature. So basically, without a human intervention, you can protect let's say a plant or something that can be as a natural phenomenon in nature because you don't leave other people the opportunity to use it as it is. So basically something that is invented by people or by a group or by business, and is very unique, and it's something new, then it should be protected and it can be protected by IP rights.

Katherine Ann Byam  15:50  
That's a fantastic response. And definitely, I think this is something that we need to get involved with. What do you see as the potential future for SEEUTechPark, and how you expected to transform the Macedonian economy in the future?

Gjorgji Rafajlovski  16:06  
Thank you. That is also an interesting question. First of all, I see the development of the Tech Park as a good partner for startups and young innovators. That's for sure. I would see that in the next five years. We can help as many as young enterpreneurs that we can into the journey of commercialising their innovations, not just in this country but in the region and Europe also.

In general, I would like to see the first one of many unicorns from from this country and this region on the startup testing, especially in Europe. But also, I would like to see more investors tapping into this market because here in this region, we have very good talent, very skilled young people that are very opportunistic, and we have great conditions for for establishing and starting businesses.

So I would see ourselves as a good partner in the near future for every entrepreneur and startup. But I would also like to see the textbook, connecting with other hubs and innovation centres in the region, and with other universities, not just here, but also in Europe, and to develop and to bring value to to our clients and potential clients in boosting technology and innovation. Not just in our country, but but worldwide.

Actually, we're here just to promote entrepreneurship as a system and try to develop the new generation of Macedonian enterpreneurs that can go out there and change the world.

Katherine Byam 18:03  
It's a great challenge that you have set up for yourself. And thank you for sharing your journey and SEEUTechPark with us. Thanks for joining the show.

Gjorgji Rafajlovski  18:12  
Thank you, Katherine. Likewise,

About this Episode

These are the notes from the TED Styled talk I gave at the Bee Inspired Event in April 2021. Enjoy this session.

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam  0:01  

From what I can tell, we have always believed in stories and narratives woven into the fabric of well-being, and the identity of the society we are a part of. Many societies once thought that the world was flat. This was until philosophers and mathematicians and scientists proved otherwise. Well, for some of us at least. But the process of facilitating this transition of beliefs involved colonisation, slavery, murder, and eventually the reeducation with new stories. There are still tribes in the Amazon forest in Brazil and Venezuela, and other places around the world too to be fair, who believe that children have been fathered by all the lovers a woman takes during her pregnancy. Scientists have proven that this isn't true. But the social impact of that belief meant that all men who had relations with that woman would take a role in that child's upbringing. That child belonged to a community. 

For many of us today, we believe that a large house, a powerful car, and the ability to travel in style and in luxury are a sign of success that will attract not only more wealth, but more community and more well-being for us and our families. We believe that we can have infinite growth. We only need to put our minds to it. Growth Mindset they say. But can we really have infinite growth on a finite planet? My name is Katherine Ann Byam and I'm a business resilience strategist and leadership coach, helping leaders design a path to sustainable transformation for their businesses, careers, and lives. I am inspired in particular by one of the UN Sustainable Development Goals,  Goal No. 8 Decent Work and Economic 

Growth. And to explain what that means to me, I'm going to have to take you on a trip to 1982 in the suburbs of a tiny island, called Trinidad and Tobago. My parents were typical middle-class boomers who lived a comfortable life in a house with land and space for multiple cars and a garden. My parents did decent work. My dad was a lawyer working for the government. His promotions at the time were primarily based on his time in service. My mom was a High School teacher of Biology and food and nutrition.

My grandparents lived a life more closely linked to nature. My grandmother was not allowed to go to High School, so she lived her life as a homemaker. I never once heard her complain, though. When I was born, my grandfather was already retired. And he was the proud owner of a permaculture regenerative farm. He did not call it that, I assure you, he called it “the garden.” I remember it distinctly. His garden has beautiful fruit trees for as far as my tiny eyes can see. And as an adult, it looks smaller than I remember. But at the time, that place meant the world of adventure to me. He had an area for growing beans and pulses, an area for flowers, an area for chickens to rummage around and to feed off the land. The first time I witnessed a chicken being killed was in that garden.

 My granddad would take the chicken and carry it to an area out of the eye range of the other hens and the coop. He would slide the entire chicken into a paint can with a hole at the bottom, and then hold the chicken’s wings and legs in place with that can so he could swiftly separate its head from its body. The chickens don't die immediately with this method. But they also do not suffer for very long. This would probably disturb most five-year-olds who live in cities today. But at the time, although it was difficult to watch, it fit the context in which he lived and in which that chicken lived. My grandfather was a sustainable farmer and sources 40% of his food from his garden. Bread, rice, and fish was still sourced from the grocery. What happened to the chicken felt like a natural part of being on a farm. We eat fresh eggs laid by the chickens who eat a bit of corn and a lot of bugs. My grandfather did decent work. His reward was seeing his garden grow and sharing the fruits of that labour with his family and his neighbours, who in turn also shared the fruits of their labour. Much of the local community with sustainable farmers.

No one would walk past my grandparents while they’re relaxing on their porch in the evenings, for example, without stopping to say hello, having a chat, or coming to collect or to receive or to give food. I'll be honest with you, I didn't know how much I valued that part of my upbringing until very much later. 

I wanted to take on the world. When I got my first job at a multinational company, I was earning more money than my mom did. Within a few years, I was earning more than everyone in my family. I was travelling the world and acquiring knowledge of how to make decisions that favour the shareholder of a major corporation.

 At one point, I would fly through Miami twice every month, each time asking the travel agent to schedule the connecting flight late enough, so I could take a trip to Dolphin Mall for shopping. My footprint is huge. And even though I donated much of my clothing to charity, I still have four suitcases and Ziploc things that I could hope to wear again. Sure, I have a Finance and Audit background, I prepared financial statements. I sat on the board’s Audit Committee. I travelled to more than 50 International offices to review our business practices. I had decent work and a massive consumeristic appetite. When I joined the company, there were more than 120,000 people globally. By 2010, the number halved.

 My grandmother died in 2010. Seven years after my granddad, she was 92. I learned that while I sat quietly on my own in a church in Santiago de Compostela. intervene. I received a voicemail message and I knew instinctively what that message was going to say. At the time, I was actually there because I was beginning to wonder if I made the right decision leaving my family behind for the glamour of life and work in Europe. My view of decent work had begun to fracture.

By 2014. I was on a list, one of those lists that no one likes to be on. There was a list for information and consultancy. There was a chance I would be made redundant. I kept my job. Yet I started to wonder what else I could be doing? That's not this that would bring me more joy, and be better for the planet. Work is decent if you as the individual believe that it is. My grandfather was a police officer before he retired, but his dream was to form a garden. He changed his life immediately and completely upon retirement. And he continued to work in that garden for 20 years until his death.

 That garden never paid him a cent. But it gave him a great community and food on the table. My grandmother was never paid for her entire life for her work. But she was fulfilled by raising and caring for her family. She showered us with completely unconditional love. I was paid very well for my work. But I felt a growing misalignment between what I valued and what my employer valued. And when I went off to do an MBA, and during one of my classes, it was the first time I realised that my income was in the top 1% globally, and the top 5% in the UK. Before that, I felt like I wasn't making much money relative to my international peers, for example. I started to understand the systemic inequalities that are creating further and further distance from the richest, let's say 2000 plus billionaires of the world and the poorest 20%. Income inequality is an important subject we need to address. 

And sooner rather than later, we tend at times to conflate climate change with sustainability. Yet sustainability could be understood as an entire system of economics and activities that maintains or improves the quality of life of people on our planet. The very foundation of our lives has been disrupted by reality. Yes, reality. Many of us esteem to be wealthy, financially, in real assets, and in our relationships perhaps. Yet we ignore the signs that things are not going as planned. And that while we build toward Maslow's idea of self-actualization, the base of our pyramid is fracturing under the weight of our desires. Food is impacted by toxic chemicals, significant water use, and antibiotics.

Water is impacted by industrial pollution, climate change farming methods, and simply where you live in the world. Air is impacted by toxic chemicals being released by industries and by farms, and shelter is being disrupted by the atmospheric conditions that are causing us to emit vast amounts of CO2 and CH4, and other toxicants into the air. So what can we do? The really great news is that everything, absolutely everything is open to being redesigned. So I want to call you to action today saying, “Start with you!” Recognise that sustainability is self-care. It is the care for your health and well-being. It is the care for your family's health and well-being, and others care for your community. Understand the data.

Do a baseline assessment. You can do this for your personal life by checking the World Wildlife organisation site, for example. And for your business, you can take the free assessment available on the B Corp site. This can tell you where you are across a variety of measures and help you to decide where to celebrate, and where to start taking purposeful action. Collaborate. Look for collaboration opportunities among business units or across your community that design solutions for a problem you see at work or where you live. Diversity created the rich planet we live in today and inclusion will help us save it. Innovate. Remember that innovation doesn't have to be new to the world.

Most of man's best inventions have come from observing nature. Observe solutions and other spheres that can be repurposed, adapted, and used to address new solutions in your area. Do you remember the book, “So You Got Innovation?” It was one of the greatest books I read during my MBA. And in that book, there was an example of an Indian potter, who designed a fridge made simply from clay and water. Simple, elegant. If you have the capital to invest, think big. We live in an age where we have the most advanced tools and data are available. Much of the technology for many of the solutions that we need already exists.

Volunteer to support the transformation of urban spaces into areas for community farming and other forms of integrative activities. This concept of “interbeing” is something that I think is so powerful. We are connected to the flora, the fauna, and the people who live around us. And we need to find ways to preserve that connection. Where should you work? I say work for companies who have taken a stand. But you don't have to. You can do things where you are and change and influence a better tomorrow. The companies who have taken a stand - I can bring some examples for you, Patagonia. They were one of the forerunners in B Corp assessments, and they say that we are in business to save the entire planet. Then we have our favourite bamboo roll company Who gives a crap. This one currently gives considerably to charities to support toilets for places that do not have sanitation, appropriate sanitation in Africa, for example, and also to help them repurpose that waste matter into soil manure for farming. Oatly, the oat milk brand that's disrupting the milk industry.

Then we have the Impossible burger. And that's a company that has found a way to make plant-based burgers smell and taste like the real deal. I want to leave you with this. What we believe as humans have changed and evolved any number of times throughout our history. The more we learn, the better decisions we can make. But this only works if we are willing to be curious enough to suspend our beliefs and stay in the question. We have precedent for being able to make a significant change for the better of our planet. We slowed the destruction of the ozone layer with the Montreal Protocol, for example, in 1987.

The Paris Climate Accord in 2015, has had a rocky fight for six years, with us pulling in and out of it. But we see that nations are recommitting, the global pandemic showed us that we can all slow down and even live with far less than we thought we could. This tells me we also have the ability to redesign the engines of growth. And think of it as much more than wealth in the form of physical capital, we can start to appreciate our natural capital and our social capital as well. The only limit we have in making this change a reality is our imagination. Whatever you believe you can do, believe we can all change and save the world. And we will. 

About this Episode

Saleema Vellani is an award-winning serial entrepreneur, keynote speaker, a professor, and the author of Innovation Starts With “I”.

Saleema is the Founder & CEO of Ripple Impact, which helps entrepreneurs increase their influence and impact through accelerating the growth of their platforms and businesses. She also teaches design thinking and entrepreneurship at Johns Hopkins University and is a frequent guest lecturer at business schools.

We discussed her new book, Innovation starts with I.

Here's the link to pre-order her book
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/innovation-starts-with-i#/

And a link to her 100 Coffee Challenge.
https://saleemavellani.ck.page/100-coffee-challenge

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam  0:02  

Hi Saleema, and welcome to Where Ideas Launch, The podcast for the Sustainable Innovator.Welcome, and thank you for joining me. 

Saleema Vellani  0:35  

Thank you so much for having me, Katherine. 

Katherine Ann Byam  0:37  

You must be so chuffed and excited about the launch of your new book. Why don't you tell us a bit about the journey to bring this book to life?

Saleema Vellani  0:46  

Yeah, sure. So it depends on how far you want me to go back. But the journey essentially started in 2014. When I decided I wanted to write a book with a friend and I ended up parking the project. But it was an idea and we wrote some Google documents and started going for coffee with my friend and I asked him to co-author with me. And it was an initial phase of my life because I had been an entrepreneur, a successful entrepreneur of the past. And then for me, it was not about being an entrepreneur, it was about having the dream job.

And when I got the dream job, I realised it wasn't the job it wasn't as dreamy as I thought it was. And so I was trying to find my inner entrepreneur, trying to help other people unleash their inner entrepreneur while I was also trying to unleash it within myself and figure out, "How do I become an entrepreneur?" Again, how do I come up with a great idea? I would spend a lot of my nights on Google trying to figure out what are the trends, what are problems, I can solve what kind of business I should go into.

And I was looking outward, I was looking outside and not looking within myself. And the very same problem I was trying to solve for other people I needed to solve for myself. And so my friend ended up telling me, he said to me, "I think you need to live a little bit more before you're ready to write this book." And he was right. It was hard to hear it at the time. But I said, "Maybe I just don't have it in me right now to do this." And then I had a whole journey which I talked about in my book - a whole transformative journey. When I went through a whole evolving into this next version of myself and there's a whole life quake, my life had a crash, and everything kind of fell apart piece by piece. And I go into detail about that in the book.

And it was only until five years later when I picked up the book project again. When I decided, people were wanting to hear my story. People were wanting to learn from me. I was already teaching at that point. I was already doing a lot of the speaking and a lot of getting myself out there to share my story. And it was then that I had the confidence. And I decided, "Yes, it's time to do it." But again, I didn't know how to do it on my own because I didn't have a co-author. And I knew I had to write it on my own. But I got stuck. And I said, “Well, I did what I do best, which is build a team and put a team together to get the help I need so that the things that I suck at are not greyed out so that I can focus on the thing that I'm great at.” But then again, I got stuck again on the writing process because who am I writing this for? How do I where do you start?

A book is not like writing an article. It's a lot of work. So I ended up deciding to interview people, I got inspired. I have this process called the 100 Coffee Challenge which I used during my life quake to go out and get a job when I was stuck. And I had two weeks to find a job that was sponsored by Visa here in the United States. And I use that same process. I use that for many different things. And I and other people, my students and interns use that process as well, to go and have 100 coffees with people. So you learned a lot about yourself through that process. I call it active introspection by going out and talking to people, you learn a lot about yourself. It's not just looking inward, it's getting insights about yourself through your blind spots, especially by having those conversations with other people. And I did that same process with my book, I decided to interview 100 people.

 So I interviewed people from all walks of life and met innovators, entrepreneurs, leaders, even Arianna Huffington, Alex Osterwalder, who created The Business Model Canvas and just a lot of really interesting people. And that made me realise that inspired me to write and to put all those insights together and essentially, the beginning of the book journey was, I would say, finding myself through other people and living my story and then being able to write about it through getting inspired through those conversations.

Katherine Ann Byam 4:38  

What made you want to do intrapreneurship? Why was this something that consumed you?

How Saleema Started Her Career

Saleema Vellani  4:45  

Hmm, for me, it's how I started my career. So it's familiar to me because I graduated during a financial crisis in 2009 from university and couldn't find a job. And so I ended up going to Brazil to do some volunteer work and get some more international experience. And it was interesting because I was supposed to work in an orphanage. And then at the last minute, my boss in Brazil called me and said, "You know, before you come to Brazil, I just want to let you know, you're not going to come to the orphanage just yet, you're going to be in Rio de Janeiro. And you're going to start this language school because the situation is ingrained at the orphanage and we need to have more funding to help us run our operations." And so I was put into Rio at age 21.

And had to start the school in Brazil. And in Brazil at the time, it was not easy to do something like that and to get something started, especially a business with very few resources that we had. And the situation we lived in, we didn't have water for most days. I was living in a really cramped room with bunk beds with other volunteers that were coming in and out. And it was just a really uncomfortable situation not having the water, having the internet, all those things. I was just working all the time with the school trying to get it to be successful. And it was there that I learned a lot about entrepreneurship and all the failures as well. Because we had a business model that was like, "let's teach all these languages to these different students."

We were a bunch of foreign volunteers. But we realised that that was a model for failure because it wasn't done initially enough. And we weren't getting enough students. Our classrooms are almost empty but it was just like all our group classes were turning into private lessons. So we ended up really taking a look at what we could do. And we said, "Well, what can we do.?" And so we decided to test this idea of just focusing on Portuguese for foreigners and getting rid of all those other languages, Italian, French, Spanish, etc. And it was when we made that pivot, and we reinvented ourselves. We were like, "Wow, the school took off." And now it's one of the top-rated schools in Brazil for learning Portuguese and wins awards consistently. And it all just started with that little project. And again, I was a co-founder, but it wasn't my idea that I was executing.

And so because I started my career with that project, I learned everything, I learned how to be comfortable being uncomfortable. I learned about how to start a business from the ground up. And I carry that on with me. So when I went to Italy, that's another story, I started a translation business. And that was how I survived starting these businesses even though I didn't call myself an entrepreneur, I think probably more like a creator, whatever you want to call it, but I never really labelled it. Because for me, I was embarrassed that I couldn't get a job. And this is what I had to do. And so when I started graduate school.

 I didn't even tell a lot of people that I was running these businesses because it was for me, I failed. I didn't get the job that I thought I was gonna get after college. And so it was only when I came to the United States that's when I was like, "Boom! Entrepreneurship is not such a bad thing." Like it actually sounds. I've done it before. And when I tried the corporate thing and I tried to work on a nine-to-five for a few years I was like, "I really miss that, that level of creativity, that elation, the lifestyle that I had, and the freedom it was a lot of work. And I say I probably worked a lot more being an entrepreneur but there was a certain "I could really embrace myself and my skills and being myself."

And I think because we're evolving as humans at such a fast pace. We're in this reinvention revolution, where we're trying, we need to reinvent ourselves faster and more frequently than ever before. And so, I think because of that pace of growth that we're seeing right now, I would say that I love being an entrepreneur, but I also love being an intrapreneur. So I always do both, I never just do one or the other always, I call it in my book, hybrid-preneurship where you're embracing being in.

It doesn't have to be a corporate setting, it could be doing consulting work on certain projects. But I always think it's very important to contribute to the larger organisations because that will bring value. You're learning in both areas but you're maybe getting more training and maybe doing things that you wouldn't. You're trying to upskill yourself in one of your projects, or whatever. So I think it's important to embrace both to manage that risk. And I think just so entrepreneurship is very glorified, most people can just do it. 

Saleema’s Advice For The Emerging Innovator

Katherine Ann Byam  9:22  

That's so true. I think one of the other things that have become more and more clear is that innovation doesn't start with intrapreneurs, right. Employees are innovators every day. And I wanted to get into that because I know that you have some great advice for that in your book. What would you say to people, employees, to become more creative to express their creativity and take chances?

Saleema Vellani  9:50  

Great question. I think the first thing to do is to start looking inward and that's what my book talks a lot about. Innovation starts with "I." Even though it happens to me, and anything that I did, if I did it alone, I feel that I failed miserably. All those things I did a lot. It was only when I had a team, a community, you know, a group of people or a support network around me. And so I think ultimately, you do have to start with yourself. And if you look at some of the best innovators and look at Steve Jobs, because his journey of enlightenment or transformation happened in India.

And when he came back, he was all rejuvenated and was able to really innovate with his work at Apple. And so, I think oftentimes we focus on the final product of the invention and we don't put enough emphasis on that personal transformation during that has to happen. And so for employees, I think we need to first drop those labels of employees and entrepreneurs because I think that's why there are so many entrepreneurs that are failing, and so many employees - it's hard to retain them. Even like the intrapreneur and entrepreneur thing, there are all these labels.

Sometimes people feel like as an employee, “I'm not successful.” Listen, an entrepreneur here, at least, that was what was considered cool and successful. And then if I was just an entrepreneur that was failing, Oh it's just interesting because I think we use these labels and they have certain connotations. And so I think, first of all, drop the titles and everyone should just have their brand as an individual, as a person and be brand-agnostic around being under a company. I think we see a lot of solopreneurs who are really, really attached to their company; but at the end of the day, they get hired or they're successful as a human or as an individual. And so I think the same thing with employees, really kill it as an intrapreneur. Really kill it with your work within the company, and not just your day to day role.

See where you can give back to your community and your job or start something within and I think that's an opportunity to learn as much as possible. I think people should be in jobs to learn as much as possible so that they can be an entrepreneur at some point in their life. Or if not, start running or get their project going on a smaller scale. And I think what an important tool that's in one of my early chapters of the book, it's on finding your sweet spot. I think our sweet spots, not just something that we discovered, I think we have to develop it, we have to work at it. And that's where I think being in a job is great because you can have a little bit of room for failure and to learn, and you're not expected to always be the expert. You have a community. You have resources. You have a lot more. You have less risk, oftentimes than just being a sole entrepreneur.

And so I would say during this exercise called "sweet spot mapping" where you think about it like your four quadrants where you look at your career as a portfolio or your life is a series of projects, and not so much like what is a series of jobs, and really think about what projects you excel that so what are the projects that people and you know that you did really well and not just work projects that it could be stuff that you do on an advisory board. It could be volunteer work, it could be personal things too. And so really think about those projects that you really excelled at. And then you want to look at what are the projects that people gave you the most positive feedback on, so you got a lot of praise.

And sometimes you get taken by surprise because people will tell you things. And you're like, "Wow, I didn't know, you know, you saw that in me" or "I didn't know I was great at this." or "I didn't know I did that really well. We have blind spots, we're human. So I think really trying to understand the perspective of other people goes a long way. And then the third thing to do is to really think about those projects that you really love doing. You know, you might not be the best at them, but you love doing them. And those activities that you would even do for free because you love doing them so much. So whether you're running a podcast, or you're writing a book or doing something that you love, think about those things.

And then the fourth quadrant is the most important one because that's where we often quiet our inner voices, and we don't listen to ourselves enough. And it's the open-to-testing area. So that's the projects that you're open to testing. So some of those ideas that you have late at night where you wake up at three in the morning, and then you don't write it down, or some of those projects on your back burner that you never get to do. They are maybe slightly out of your comfort zone.

Maybe you're like, I don't have the time. But I know I really need to do this. It's those projects, think about how you can scale down and start with baby steps or micro-steps and just get them going because those are the projects that you often have to develop more skills in but they're projects or skills or things that you can be very successful in.  Often times you touch on, you iterate, and you pivot in a different direction. So like for me it was, public speaking or certain things that I was very uncomfortable doing and I never thought that I would ever do and that I was always a behind-the-scenes desk person and then just trying some of those things, I got invited to some events or certain things I was like, "No. I'm just gonna do it." And it's those projects, those skills, or activities that I think we need to pay attention to. And I think we could be more successful as innovators or entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs if we take on more of those open to testing projects,

Katherine Ann Byam  15:25  

I like the idea of being open to testing. Now we have a lot of challenges facing us in the world, and this podcast is rooted in this idea of sustainability. I see that we have a huge opportunity. Like, I think we have an opportunity now to reinvent a lot of things that we've taken for granted in the past. And that's opening the door for many people to step into themselves and express themselves differently. What are your thoughts on sustainable innovation? And how can we do more to lift it and support it?

Upholding Sustainable Innovations By Coming Together and Embracing Diversity

Saleema Vellani 15:59  

Yeah, so sustainable innovation is a whole topic of its own. I would say that there's a lot on that. I think right now we're seeing a lot of really neat stuff with the younger generations, like trying to clean up all the mess over the past few decades. There are some serious issues we have in the world that we're trying to figure out how to solve whether it's through social enterprise or corporate innovation, social innovation through companies and through different means. 

Solving the Problems of the World by Leveraging Diversity

But ultimately, I think that we need to have more conversations with the different stakeholders. So I think coming together and really embracing diversity, I think sometimes we hear like, great minds think alike. And I really think that great minds think differently. And so I think we need to bring different minds together to solve that. I was actually just in a conference this morning on food security in Cairo. And it was interesting because it was virtual. But it was interesting because it was all these different stakeholders from different countries that were coming together to discuss these things. And I think even especially now in this virtual world, we need to have more of those conversations with different stakeholders, and make that a thing. 

Innovation Starts With “I”: The Four-Step Process to Coming Out With Your Sustainable Innovation

And so I would say for sustainable innovation, I say that the first thing to do is if you're like an individual that's trying to figure this out, and you do something, whether you're a leader in a company or you're a business owner, and you're trying to figure out how to incorporate that, I would say that first start with yourself. And again, innovation starts with "I." So do some self-ideation. So really look at your passions, what frustrates you. So your values, your skills, your experience, and try to figure out how you can inject your uniqueness into the world.

And I would say that’s the first. The second thing to do after you do that self-ideation is to start adding value to people wherever you can. So whether it's through some volunteer work, some expert hearing, going to a different country or virtually helping other people however you can really try to bring your expertise and your value. I think that goes a very long way. I think we need to prioritise giving more, and we learn a lot about ourselves. But we also get some really great ideas when we do some of those activities that are just giving value to people.

And then the third is to really embrace failure. I think that if more people embrace failure, we would see more innovation happening on the sustainability front because a lot of times it's their big, big hairy problems and how do we solve these things. And we do have to go through cycles of iteration and learning to get to that point of a good idea becoming a great idea. We don't start with great ideas, usually. So pivoting when it's time to pivot and think. Oftentimes, we don't know when it's time to stick or like to evaluate the risk and all this sort of stuff. There's just so much to really think about and to also listen to our inner voice. And then when is it time to pivot because a lot of times we just give up where we say this is not going to work. And sometimes we just need to have the right conversation, or we need the right training with the right skills or technology. And we let go of those ideas, or we let go of those projects. And so, I go through that four-step process.

Know When To Pivot

Katherine Ann Byam  19:12  

Yeah. That's interesting. You just touched on pivoting. And I guess my question is, what would be your criteria for knowing it's time to pivot?

Saleema Vellani  19:23  

Great question. I actually interviewed Doug Galen from Rippleworks Foundation. They do a lot of connecting with social entrepreneurs with Silicon Valley mentors. And so they have a really interesting business model. But he mentioned to me that it's important to evaluate what are the three critical risks? What are those three critical risks and really think about those three critical risks?

Then you would know when you do that analysis. Is it time to stick and keep going as a time to let go or is it time to pivot so really thinking about the risks, and doing some coming from the economics world probably doing some cost-benefit analysis on that front as well? If there's a way you can kind of evaluate, is this the path? What are the risks? What are the benefits, and in doing that analysis, I think that can go a long way? If there's a way to simplify it, I would say do a 100 Coffee Challenge as I mentioned. Go and talk to 100 people.

Talk to people from different walks of life, different cultures, different industries, especially not just your own industry. I think that gives a lot of insight so that you're not just putting all the weight on yourself for making that decision. And especially talking to industry experts. I think, oftentimes, we need to have a diversion and talk to different people. But I also think that there's a certain level of, especially if you are trying to innovate and you're trying to scale your business, there's a lot of lack of mentorship that's really connected to industry expertise. And that's something that actually Rippleworks Foundation is trying to tackle by connecting those industry expert mentors and stuff. So I think really thinking about that is key, if I could simplify it. 

Katherine Ann Byam  21:16  

Perfect! How can people find out more about you? 

Saleema Vellani  21:19  

Yeah, so they can follow me on social media. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So I think you can put in the show links, my LinkedIn URL. I'm also active on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter. The handle is at Saleema Vellani. And the book is called Innovation Starts With"I" and as you mentioned, it's going to be released later this spring so people can pre-order it already we had a successful Indiegogo campaign last year and we're still taking pre-orders and so those are the different ways where they can visit my website saleemavellani.com and subscribe to the newsletter. That's another great way to stay in touch.

Katherine Ann Byam  21:56  

Perfect. Thanks so much for joining us on the show, Saleema. It's been wonderful hosting you.

Saleema Vellani  22:01  

Thank you. Thanks so much, Katherine for having me.

About this Episode

In this episode, we are going to be discussing future falent with an old friend of mine, Harry. It was such a pleasure to reconnect!

Harry Vargas is a dynamic HR leader and change agent.

He’s passionate about driving transformation for capacity building and growth, through commercially relevant and pragmatic organizational and talent strategies.

He has 20 Years of multi-market & cultural experience, successfully leading and developing diverse teams at local, regional and global levels.

Harry joined Microsoft in 2020, to lead HR and the culture & people transformational agenda, for the growing regional hub based in Costa Rica, serving LATAM and the US.

Harry is Costa Rican and grew up in Colombia.

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam  0:01  

Harry, welcome to Where Ideas Launch.

Harry Vargas  1:13  

Hi, Katherine. I am so happy to see you after a few years now. Thank you for having me.

Katherine Ann Byam  1:18  

It is really wonderful to have you on the show. Let me set the scene a bit. We have had about five years of digital transformation happen in one incredible year that has been 2020. And looking at the world stock markets, technology firms have significantly benefited from this upheaval whereas, traditional industries have suffered from the decline in overall spending and the closure of retail. The impact on jobs has been significant but buffered by state assistance in many places. And many more people are now in what we could describe as the hustle economy. My first question for you is how did these changes affect traditional organisations from your background; and how do you think they can effectively respond?

Harry Vargas  2:01  

Sure, I think this is one of those things that when you get a real challenge, it brings an opportunity. And I think that is what has happened in this new environment. If you talk about digital transformation - I think in most companies, we have been talking about this for at least 10 years - every time it gets to the point where you have to prioritise the investments and put some money behind it, it doesn't get prioritised because there are other things before doing this. So in this new context that we live in, I think companies simply did not have an option to wait any longer. And started to rethink how to work around this.

That was for me, an opportunity, but at the same time, a huge challenge. So as you have seen, some companies have been able to move faster than others. But everyone is trying to do something about it. The other thing that I noticed is that at least over the last year, consumers adapted way faster to the digital environment than companies did because we didn't pretty much have a choice. And we have to adapt the way we do things in many aspects of life. So again, it was one more challenge and burning platform for companies to really do something about this and do it quickly.

Obviously, it had an impact on cultures and especially for more traditional organisations. We stop and rethink the way we do business, the way we engage with consumers and our employees inside the organisation so we can be faster and more agile. Agility is one of those terms that also we have been using for quite a while. But now, it is a must. You really have to be agile to adapt to everything we need to do differently. So the traditional ways of making decisions in companies were pretty much centralised or maybe too slow. That being said, they may even need to have specific space for innovation. We simply have to stop and do something different, and it impacts the culture. So I think that's the first thing I noticed.

Then, there was an impact also on rethinking what are the skills that we need, what sort of profiles we will need to bring into the organisation so that we have a more diverse way of looking at the opportunities in the market and understanding consumers. And again, diversity and inclusion and all of those things are not new. They have been around for years. But finally, we get organisations to see the imminent value of this and any matter of life or death. Sorry for being dramatic but now we are facing it.

 So I think it is very challenging. It puts every company in a situation where they have to simply change the way they are doing things and come up with a new picture of success, and different ways of doing business. Even for HR, I spend most of my time working on HR strategies and programs. And there were very similar conversations that we have had over the years in terms of having a more flexible working environment that is (maybe) more agile and may have an opportunity to integrate different technologies and be simply closer to people, acknowledging that we are not just working with machines.

And those were very complex conversations for things that today are so obvious, like remote working and those kinds of things. Again, many companies were discussing that for years and did not make any decisions around it. But simply, they did not have any choice any longer. I think, overall, we have faced a cultural shift in finally putting the consumer at the core and bringing this flexibility into the organisations to do whatever it takes to rethink and survive.

Katherine Ann Byam  6:26  

As you touched on it. I wanted to get into your thoughts on the implications of skills for organisations. So I know that you're sitting now from the perspective of Microsoft. And I am going to come to that for sure. But what are the implications on individual skill sets given that we have had so much transformation happening so quickly?

Harry Vargas  6:47  

I was reading a paper from the World Economic Forum on the future of jobs. If you put it simply quite cold, it is a world that has been split into these: essential workers, remote workers, and then the ones that have been, unfortunately, displaced. And if you look at the situation, what we have is a workplace that requires a good combination of some of the classic skills like leadership and good management - "the good old things," but now bringing in more agility and some more specific skills like data science, understanding of artificial intelligence, innovation, adaptability, remote leadership, managing hybrid teams, being more resilient, a full understanding of how teams need to be self-directed in this remote world, and the capacity to help your teams to connect virtually while still maintaining the cultural feeling even if we're not together physically.

So it's a good combination of some of the skills that we used to work around for the last few years but maybe with a lens that is more agile,  modern, and integrating technologies, and those sorts of things. If you look at the kind of jobs that will be more required in the future, all of them have to do with the facilitators of digital transformations, to begin with. People will have a lot to do with data analytics, data science, machine learning, learning expert specialists since all of that is changing. They are engineers, software developers, and information security. We have had many threats over the last few years.

You are seeing now what is happening. So those specific modern skills are the things that we are seeing. It obviously does not mean that now everyone has to know and be an expert around those things. At least, we need to be very aware of how to live in an environment that requires those skills, learn some of those skills and adapt to the new ways of working.

Katherine Ann Byam  9:22  

Yeah. I know that this one is gonna be an interesting question, I think, for my listeners. So we know that as we get older, the ability to learn new things and assimilate rapidly with ease sort of diminishes. That we can always be lifelong learners is obviously something that we can maintain throughout our lives. However, we know that we get slower. And as we get slower, things are accelerating. Right? The rate of change of technologies is way faster than anything we have ever known. What would you recommend for people in their mid-career stages, in managerial type roles who may be in their 40s or 50s who are either out of work or looking for new jobs? What would you recommend that they do? And how do they overcome the natural bias we might have to adult learners?

Harry Vargas  10:10  

Yes. That is an interesting question, a challenging and a very common one - I guess - in this particular time, with many of us trying to adapt and look for new things. I would say, maybe it sounds very simple. But I would start by looking around and assessing who my competition is in terms of talent. Because when you get to a point in which you are already a manager, middle manager, or have relevant experience, it’s good that you feel confident. But look around and see who your competitors are? What sort of skills do the other people have that you will be competing against to get those nice jobs? What do they have? What have they learned more recently - which of those skills that

I mentioned that they recently possessed that you still don't have because you can bring all of that experience which is great. And there must be a good balance in organisations with new talent. At once, that helps us navigate through changes with more experiences but we need to be realistic. We will be competing with those that have more naturally learned than our abilities. So once we assess who we are competing against, then we can prioritise where we need to go on and learn? And yes, maybe we will take some more time to learn a few things. But you really need to be very conscious and intentional about the two or three things that you need to acquire in the next 12 months. Then go and get them and reskill yourself quickly. I think this is the one thing that I would prioritise. 

The other one is the world of having good connections and good networking. Again, that is nothing new but what is new is that it is completely remote. Now, again, it's completely virtual. How do you keep a network that is serving you and that you can learn a lot from it? You can also get access to the opportunities that are around more than 70% of jobs that are open especially at the managerial level.

That the first time they open, they will do it just internally. And only when they have decided that they don't have an internal talent or they don't know someone from outside, they would open it as a vacancy, let's say. So the more connections you have, the higher the chances that you will at least have visibility of one of those opportunities. So connections more than ever, and being creative about getting those connections. Being active is the second point. And then the third, I would say be flexible. Many people have, and especially around the middle management of today, have probably built careers more traditionally. And it is simply different today. We don't even talk about careers per se anymore.

We talk about skills and we talk about experiences. And we talk about, you know, the type of very specific needs that our company has. And then what is the profile that we will bring but we don't bring any more traditional careers, let's say for the new jobs. So you have to be flexible and then assess again - what are the skills that I have? And where do I fit in the new opportunities that might be around? And that flexibility will help in bringing more opportunities in opening up conversations and being flexible about everything. So I think this is one of those concrete things that you could do.

Katherine Ann Byam  14:05  

I had an interesting conversation on this podcast as well with someone who's looking into learning futures. And one of the things that he said was that purpose is sort of akin to attention and where the purpose is, attention goes. And I reflected on this in terms of as organisations start to introduce things like ESG and get more alignment to bigger goals that are not just about stakeholder wealth and the impact this could have on people's ability to learn and assimilate faster. I don't know if you have any reflections on that. I thought it was an interesting way to put it.

Harry Vargas  14:40  

Yes. I think learning faster, as you said, is one of those things that are a must today. And it starts with being humble. If I've learned one thing over the last couple of years it is how can I be more humble in terms of asking “how much I have to learn?” And then that opens up great opportunities for you to, first of all,  feel better because you no longer feel like you know everything because you've been around for 20 years or whatever. And it even brings self-motivation. I mean there's a lot I can do differently and of course, that I can learn. Again, it goes back to these abilities that you need today. Because even if you go and learn one of the most in-fashion skills of today, maybe in 18 months, there will be something else for sure that you will have to learn. So it just has to be continuous. We got to get good at it.

Katherine Ann Byam  15:45  

Yeah. I heard another quote that said, “Typically in the past, we have been able to maintain competitive advantage within eight years or so. But now that competitive advantage has shrunk to one year” which is why the acceleration of learning puts a lot of implications on the workforce. So I want to move to potentially the last question. When we look at the future workplace in three to five years, I potentially see a blended workplace - machines and people. What are your thoughts on managing in such an environment? And what does it actually mean?

Harry Vargas  16:26  

Yes. Hybrid work - that is one of those challenges that companies are discussing every day that passes. We see it closer. Last year, there were lots of conversations that the world is turning hybrid in terms of working. We are there almost depending on the region you live in. But it is a challenge. I think, first of all, it does not mean that machines will take over human value. Right? Because that is one of the big fears around is that machines and artificial intelligence, and all that it will eliminate all the jobs, that there will be replacements.

There will be some evolution on that side; but the value of human knowledge and agility to learn and make things better, etc. will always remain. So I think, a good manager would make the best use of the skills that he or she has to add value to the processes that they are dealing with and to make it challenging for people at the same time; so that they understand that they need to keep on learning, rescaling and acquiring these new abilities. That is one thing. The other thing that I think is even bigger than that is that it's a challenge for companies and obviously for managers. You talk about purpose earlier. No matter what sort of jobs they end up in, having a purpose, more than ever, is one of those things that people are seeing or valuing as the thing that will move, engage, or keep them.

So companies are very clear in articulating what their legacy is and what their purpose is. But as an individual, when you come in, what you will be able to do with that is an advantage that we have been talking about - the quality of life and fulfilment of the work you do for years, and these sorts of things. But now again, it is more important than ever because people are prioritising differently what they value and what they want to dedicate their energy and time to. So in this future workplace, hybrid or not. people will ask -

“Where can I get the best experience?" 

"Where can I balance my life in a better way?" 

"Where can I learn more?" 

"Where can I have the flexibility to do different activities and jobs and not have to wait five-eight years to do something different?" 

And then organisations are rethinking:

“How to do this?"

"How do we manage careers differently?

"How do we plan for talent management differently?"

And everyone is learning at the same time - companies and people. So I think it is a challenging environment. It has already started. The companies that are more likely to succeed are those that are listening actively to understand. “Okay, what are the new things that people value and therefore we need to adapt?” Inside the company, you cannot force people any longer just to wait and see what the company will do now. They will have many options somewhere else, and you have to be prepared for that.

Katherine Ann Byam  20:02  

This one has to do with probably the health and well-being aspect because we kind of touched on it last year. I think that we are in a situation where all of these accelerations, as well as the general wear and tear of the pandemic, create a lot of mental health and anxiety issues that are increasing as we go. How are organisations responding to that?

Harry Vargas  20:27  

Yes, that is one of the priorities. At the moment, it has been a year, at least, for most people in this situation. In the beginning, it was more around basic things like learning to work remotely or virtually like learning to manage your time and tasks and all of that. But after a long period of time, people got burned out.

Then, we are also lacking in social contact not only with families and loved ones; but also with the things that we used to (maybe) take for granted when we were in the office like interactions, collaboration, faster decision-making, less complexity when dealing with issues that would involve people from various areas and those sorts of things; or simply having a conversation in the water cooler with someone, just talking about something else that is not about work. So people need that, and organisations have been focusing more on the good ones like - Let us first learn what people need at the moment but let us also respect their space.

In an ideal world, a great company would come up with a menu of things it can offer - wellness activities, meditation, physical exercise options, or simply additional days off to disconnect and recharge, or get in and learn something new. There are a number of things that have to do with mental health, physical health, learning different things, and simply getting out of the current environment. But there is also the option for you to choose whatever you want whenever you feel the need. So the combination of having various options and also letting people deal with it in their private space whilst having the support of the company. Behind this, I think, is a good balance because at the beginning it was very much programmed. "So now, everybody is gonna come on Fridays for yoga." Those things were nice at the beginning but now people are just tired of it. 

“So just give me my space. Give me the options and I will do whatever whenever I need it.” So that is something we are learning from the technologies. It is supporting a lot of those things. Thank God! We can still have that yoga meditation or cooking lessons or whatever it is you like. Virtually, it has not been a restriction of a year in that sense, but the variety of it and how you keep it creative is one of the challenges we are facing. 

Katherine Ann Byam  23:28  

For sure. Harry, thank you so much for your time. This has been a wonderful session. 

About this Episode

My next Guest is Shane Ward - a regenerative land use advisor, communicator and the founder of Action Ecology.

Shane brings an international perspective, scientific rigour and pragmatic approach to connecting people with the right knowledge, drawn from both innovative ‘on-the-ground’ practitioners and the latest research.

Passionate about sustainable food systems, ecosystem restoration, as well as plant, soil & microbial ecology, Shane also works more broadly to engage people with visioning a better way forwards for humanity’s approach to energy, economy and agriculture - re-partnering with natural systems - so we might provide a chance for future generations to thrive on this planet.

We discussed how we can secure the future of our food supply using natural systems as a guide.

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam  0:01  

Hi, Shane, and welcome to the show.

Shane Ward  0:04  

Thanks for having me, Katherine. 

Shane Ward  0:05  

It's really great to have someone with your experience here to share with us the importance of regeneration and what it means to our survival. My first question is, What's wrong with the way we grow food and the way we raise livestock today? 

Shane Ward  1:40  

That is a great question and it's a huge topic. So it's simply a case of counting some things and ignoring others. So the claims that it's needed to feed the world if I'm honest, I think are disingenuous at best as it accounts for only about 30% of the world's food. And half of that goes to animal feedlots and biofuels. So actually, most of the food that people are eating is produced by smallholders, what's also referred to as the peasant food web. We have a hugely destructive system.

They're telling us that they need to do this to feed the world. But they're not feeding the world. A huge proportion of that estimates between 40-50% of all the food that's produced is wasted, whether that be at the farm level, in the supply chain, after it's been purchased. So we have these other massive problems. So at the moment, the problem that we have isn't so much a lack of food, it's just a very poor way of getting it to the right place. So when we look at the question of "Why are we here? Why are we doing this?"

Shane Ward  6:07  

You know, I think it comes back to this idea of this industrial mentality that we've approached, and that is actually symptomatic of a whole range of other things, we look at our economy and other aspects of society. So it's not surprising in a way that that's been applied to food production. But the only reason that it's become as bad as it has, is because fundamentally, this has only been possible because of the essential one-off energy inheritance that we've got from fossil fuels. So put simply, we have dug up some solar energy that was stored in not fully decomposed plant and animal matter. we've dug all that up, and we've burned it, to do a lot of cool stuff for a couple of 100 years. But that party is, of course, almost over. So even if fossil fuels didn't affect the climate, which they clearly do, these are finite reserves.

And we're now past that peak of this easy-to-obtain high-quality energy. What's left is a kind of an ever decreasing energy return on energy invested, or what's known as EROI. So you know, the amount of energy it now takes to get the stuff out of the ground, means that by the time you’re burning it to get the energy from it, you're getting a much smaller proportion. So it's becoming way less efficient. And it's ultimately a dead end. So what we need to be doing is urgently envisaging a low-energy future that actually partners with natural systems again, and we can do that by harnessing nature's regenerative power to essentially do the heavy lifting for us in harvesting that surplus. It's a major mindset shift, but it's entirely possible.

Katherine Ann Byam  7:46  

Yeah. Now, that's interesting. So maybe people think that this is all doom and gloom, and that, this growth that we so need, and seek, is not entirely possible. But we can argue that it is. Can you explain perhaps the difference between sustainable and regenerative as one point and explain how we can really sustain that growth?

Shane Ward  8:12  

Absolutely. Well, I would say that the first thing to understand is that sustainable. It means what it means is a lot of people that try to say it doesn't mean anything anymore, or get confused about it. But ultimately what it means is sustainable is something that can be sustained indefinitely; in essence, can carry on forever. Something which is sustainable can be carried on forever. Regenerative is the restoration of new growth. And that applies mainly to living things. So there are some key things to remember with this. So ecosystems, for example, are never static. They are either regenerating or they're degrading. They can be doing that either slowly or quickly but they are dynamic and ever-changing, they never stay still.

They're governed by constant disturbance and regeneration. So harnessing that impulse to regenerate after disturbance is the key to regenerative agriculture. Therefore, to be sustainable and to go on forever, our land use must be regenerative. So regenerative agriculture, when we're talking about - the definition that I like to use- is that it's the design and management of productive land use through mimicry of diverse natural ecosystems. That's harnessing and restoring ecological function to produce food, fibre and fuel, and is informed by observation of and continual adjustment to feedback.

So we're constantly looking and reacting to what's happening in front of us and working with these natural processes which are going on. And I guess to really boil that down, it means that you're looking in nature for a model of how ecosystems work, one that's appropriate to where you are. And then you use that to design your land use pattern. So you're working with rather than against nature so you're shifting your mindset from trying to impose artificial simplicity onto the land to one of managing the complexity that's actually there. And this is really important because it means that you can not only stop doing all that harm, stop doing all those bad things, but you can actually restore and repair a great deal of the damage that's been done.

And it's sustainable because it can be done forever. And to me, that's a huge deal because despite all our accomplishments, as a species, we owe it all to a thin layer of topsoil and the fact that it rains. So without permanent agriculture, there can be no permanent civilization, all of our concerns around economies and everything else essentially evaporates. If we can’t feed ourselves, any of that stuff matters anymore. So to me, the primary responsibility for every nation should be to ensure the security resilience and the long term viability of the food system.

The majority of the food that can be grown in a particular place, and that climate and consumed by its citizens, on a day to day basis, should be safeguarded and should be resilient to the impacts from the world around and from climate change. Instead, the fossil fuel use and the degradation of landscapes and biodiversity and all that stuff, undermine that. And that's a huge problem. And I suppose that leads me to the second part of your question, which was around growth? Well, I don't see how we can have growth, certainly not in the way that we've been thinking about it.

We can't have economic growth in the way that we've been having it so far. I just don't see how that's possible. It seems to me to be a fantasy. There is no way to have infinite growth on a finite planet. So at a certain point, that growth is going to have to stop. And that's a whole nother topic in itself. And we could talk a bit about that. And we can talk about whether you can have relative decoupling, or absolute decoupling, and all this kind of stuff, and non-growth or stable state economies. But frankly, I think what it all boils down to is that we live in a finite world. And but for some reason, we have designed a system where we have this inherent promise or hope for continued growth, but it just is fundamentally impossible.

Katherine Ann Byam  12:41  

So this brings a lot of interesting questions for me because when you read the research and the text on circular economic principles, it suggests that this continuous growth could be possible, right? Because if you're finding ways to put things back into the system, either through extending its use, or through returning it to the environment through different means, but retaining it sustainably somehow to the environment, there is potential for continued growth. Does that fall asleep?

Shane Ward  13:14  

Well, just put up what's growing in that situation, that sounds to me like a stable state. It sounds to me like a healthy, stable state where nothing is like the laws of the universe - energy and matter is not destroyed or created, they're just transformed. And if we have economies that are based on that, or societies that are at least that is based on those principles, then that seems to be a sustainable idea, at least in theory. And if things are cycling through, then I would call that a circular or a sustainable economy but there's not really one that's growing. That's because there are only finite resources.

In fact, when we say, "Okay, well, we're not using fossil fuels. If we're not using this buried one-off inheritance of energy, then where does the energy come from?" Well, like all energy, all living systems on the planet really has only one source of energy. And it's sunlight that moves everything else. So it takes in sunlight and it releases heat. And that's it. And then all of the living systems, including us, and our entire evolution has been based on that system, and how to harness that energy, turned it into chemical energy, turn that chemical energy into work, and so on and so forth. So I feel like if we are going to design something which lasts forever or indefinitely that's sustainable, then it needs to work on those principles because that's just the reality we're faced with.

Katherine Ann Byam  14:39  

Yeah, absolutely. So now we want to kind of look at some other systems that aren't necessarily regenerative. They're probably more modern systems like aquaponics and hydroponics and aeroponics and different ways of growing food. Are these relevant solutions or are these also just the bit of delaying the inevitable?

Shane Ward  15:03  

That's a good question. But I suppose we need to ask relevant to what is the question? Every tool has a context where it's appropriate. So it's not that one thing is just always good or always bad but more of what are these solutions to? So first, let's look at the whole system of each idea. The energy and the nutrient inputs - where do these come from? A part of the challenge with things like hydroponics, for example, is that often these systems make sense when you have abundant energy. You obviously need the physical infrastructure to build a greenhouse or whatever that you're using. And then, of course, you need to do climate control and temperature control. There's a lot of energy embodied and all of that.

And but even if you say, you've got that already, can it be run essentially self-sufficiently forever? Well, I'm not sure that it can. I think at least the way that I've seen them done, you need nutrients in those systems, which are brought usually in the form of synthetic chemicals which are of course hugely energy costly to produce, and then you got to transport them, and water pumping. All this kind of stuff is quite high energy systems, even the most efficient ones. So in general terms, I would say that while they may have a place in certain circumstances, I don't see them as broad solutions to the problems that we have.

And I think it's true of any solution. Really, I think what it does is it forces us to reflect on our habits or tendency to jump to solutions immediately. Obviously, problems need solutions. But what we're often not very good at I think, as a species, is accurately identifying what the actual problem is. We are quite susceptible to treat symptoms and not root causes. Our assumptions about things and habituation to the context that we find ourselves in can discourage us from digging deeper and there are plenty of incentives to the system that we operate in to discourage systemic change or going against the grain. So I think often, we just need to really ask ourselves when we think of something as a solution, look at it as a tool, and then try and understand what am I actually trying to solve with this?

Katherine Ann Byam  17:23  

Yeah, absolutely. As we look at climate change, I think a lot of people conflate all of these issues into one thing, but there are several issues here. And if we look at climate change, I can see that these different types of solutions can be relevant to places that are climate-stressed. Because in your earlier comment, you mentioned that governments should be looking for maintaining the sustainability of their own food supply - using what's there. But that becomes more pressed as climate change happened simultaneously. So what are your reflections on that for countries that are in that belt of climate jeopardy? Let's see.

Shane Ward  18:13  

Yes. Obviously, all countries are going to be affected. I would say that. To me, regenerative agriculture is a huge part of that because, for several reasons, it not only solves several of the problems. In other words, it stops us from doing bad. It actually goes beyond that by not only restoring the damage that's been done, but to actually do good and can do things like sequester carbon in soils, and help restore biodiversity. That is the potential that it has. Certainly, in a lot of developing areas and tropical countries, we've seen Agroecology, as it's often termed, is being used to do exactly that - to provide food security and economic opportunity to smallholders and to the village scale at the regional scale.

And I think that really what we're doing is we're trying to say that it's not enough to just stop doing the bad stuff. We've actually got to try and look at how we can make positive progress. I feel that if we're learning the lessons from nature, it is that we get resilience through diversity. And that's true at all different levels of the organisation and particularly true if we're talking about how you design and manage a living food production system. So that diversity becomes a key part which means that you're no longer operating a monoculture, you don't just say, "okay, you over there, you grow maize, and then you over there, you do something else, you could do goats, and then you do soy." So you don't split it up every parcel of land or every reasonable area has a mixed production because what you do is you start getting benefits from that diversity.

Not only do you get economic benefits of course. If the price of one thing plummets, you still got something else giving you an income. But actually, you start getting the benefits of things like pest control, pathogen control, because you are hosting the habitat for the things which predict upon those pests. You are able to restore nutrient cycling and fostering healthy soils. That's an ecosystem that is supporting healthy plants. You're getting the moderation of wind, and that you're soaking more rainfall in and so on, and so forth. You’re actually restoring these ecosystems. You're restoring the function of the landscape. So that's not only a good thing for nature. That's a good thing for us. We're connected to that.

You start producing healthier food that has more bio-nutrients in it. You're getting fewer pests and diseases, problems that actually have an effect on human health as well as the landscape of health. We're starting to sequester more carbon. We can actually repair the hydrology of landscapes. We can reverse the desertification at larger scales. There's evidence to suggest that we can actually start to bring rain back to places by putting trees back into landscapes with sufficient scale.

These are quite powerful tools. And we only have to look at some of the ecosystems around the world which have been degraded. If you think the Middle East used to be the Fertile Crescent that used to be the breadbasket of civilization. Look at it now. I mean the Mediterranean didn't use to look like what it looks now all those rocks and that's the bones of the earth sticking out where all the soil is washed away after all the trees have been cut down. We have massive impacts on the landscape but we also have the power to restore them. And that's really powerful.

Katherine Ann Byam  22:24  

Absolutely. Would you say that our experiences of the pandemic have created a  mandate for change? 

Shane Ward  22:33  

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I can't speak for everywhere, of course. But you know, I have been in Australia and New Zealand, during several lockdowns and I've spoken to friends and colleagues around the world. And I think that there's definitely a view that the Covid 19 pandemic has actually had a real impact on a lot of people's perception of the world that they exist in. There's been in some cases a lot of reconnection to the community or valuing of the community that they're in, realising that those ties are really important. I think there's been a lot of questioning I've noticed about what really matters?

 Why are people deeply living in cities going and working hard at their jobs to earn more money to maybe pay off a mortgage or something? Is that really what they all they want out of life? And what's the rush? Being forced to take a pause and take a break has actually had a real impact. I think in a lot of cases. I've also noticed signs that more and more people are starting to realise that the system, the globalised world that we live in, and the systems that underpin it are quite brutal.

They've got a glimpse of that, which may be many of us had been immune to for a while. You're living in a developed world where we are led to believe that we can have anything we want, almost anytime we want. It was just how we got used to things being, probably the promises of new technology and all these new wonderful things in the way that our world is changing. And suddenly to be confronted with empty supermarket shelves in some places and just making us question, "what's the use of a food system? If it only works in the good times?"

And possibly the same for the economy - it's not safe. It's a bit of a confronting reminder that perhaps we can't do everything we want to do when we want to. It makes us question, "are we entitled to everything that we can dream of? Is that reality?” Or is that just something that we've been told through advertising and all these other things to buy stuff? I think this is really key because the again, this fossil fuel inheritance has diluted us a bit into a techno fantasy where we genuinely believe we live in a world without limits.

And we tell ourselves and each other this story in countless ways. But really no matter what anyone thinks that's just not the case. It's not it's not reality. Someone I remember reading a quote that was talking about resources and saying that, "if we continue to live in a world like there’s no tomorrow, there won't be one." And I just think, you know, when we over-consume energy and natural resources, we are borrowing that from future generations, our children. So maybe it's just time to grow up a bit and accept that the world we need won't fit inside the rules that we have. So maybe we've got to change those rules.

And especially when we look at what's coming down the line at us - climate change, biodiversity loss, and that's enormous and the only future that will be viable long-term for us is one that operates within ecological limits. Anything else is just a one-way ticket to collapse.

Katherine Ann Byam  25:52  

Yeah, I think, probably my last question, we'll see how we go. What you've said has a lot of implications for how we live. And I know the pandemic has open the door to change because we've seen that we can completely change our behaviours. But I also know that there are a lot of people that are looking forward to when we can go back. There's a lot of talk about when we go back, there are things that they definitely don't want. And so that's the immediate things like going back into a cubicle in an office. People are pretty open to being quite flexible about how they work. But I don't know if the realities that we're talking about today are still close enough to home for many people. What individual changes do we need for people to make in order to start moving governments and decision-makers toward this cleaner, clearer and more regenerative future?

Shane Ward  26:58  

It's such a good question. And I guess it's one that's never that far away from my thoughts. One note on all of this really is that I've noticed that in this digital world that we inhabit more and moreover the last few years, there's a tendency for discussions to become polarised and for people to miss or not be interested in the nuance anymore because everything's a bit black and white. It's a bit adversarial. And I think that that's problematic. Because a lot of these approaches, these answers that are out there for us require us to demand that we be a bit more observant and a little more humble.

 And you know sit in the question a bit more sometimes. Look at what's actually going on observe and really see that everything is somewhat contextual. So to answer your question, there is no one size fits all response to that. What Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Larry Page can do versus what you or I or a teenage factory worker in Southeast Asia can do is going to vary wildly. So you know, it's difficult to generalise. But I suppose I'd say, whoever you are, wherever you are, start where you are.

 Influence while you can, but never lose sight of the big picture. Recognise that the system makes hypocrites of all of us and demand better choices. Buy with whatever spending power you have. Companies, I've seen this plenty of times, played us and say they're just giving people what they want but that's passing the buck. Do what you can in your life. Know that individual change will never be sufficient to tackle this. But it's equally true that we absolutely cannot do it without you.

 One really powerful thing I think that will benefit you and the wider world is to understand and care about where your food comes from and how it's produced. Now, there's so much talk about our good food, bad food, I can't eat meat, I'm gonna become a vegan for environmental reasons. Whether food is good or bad is determined by how it is produced, not what it is.

That's the key takeaway here. And that should matter to everyone because the health of the ecological system where your food comes from is directly connected to the health of your own body system. You're taking that food and you're consuming it, You're feeding the microbes in your gut and that food is becoming you. So it actually really matters how your food is produced and where it comes from. So support those people that are out there regenerating their soils and their landscapes and not destroying them.

 That's a huge step if people can do that. So if that ends up with people forming closer ties to the food that they eat and then who's producing it or where it comes from and more of a localised food connection, then I think that's a huge step. But maybe I'll just leave with this parting thought. We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

About this Episode

Chris Pirie – CEO of the Learning Futures Group is an experienced talent leader, obsessed with making the future workplace better. Formerly a Global VP of Online Learning at Oracle and Chief Learning Officer of Microsoft, Chris’s entire career has been spent working at the intersection between Workplace Learning and Technology. He now provides advisory services to enterprise organizations and EdTech vendors and teaches as Senior Faculty at the Josh Bersin Academy and The Future Workplace Academy.

In 2019, Chris launched The Learning Futures Group to help organizations rethink their Learning and Development strategy in the face of historic workplace disruption and change. He launched Learning Is The New Working a podcast about the future of workplace learning and the people helping us get there, as part of his research activities.  The podcast has had over 30,000 downloads. He is also a founding director of Humentum.

Chris brings a passion for driving disruptive change and innovation and is a proven business and people leader of large functional teams in very dynamic enterprise environments. He has developed strategic partnerships with leading business schools such as INSEAD, London School of Business, and Wharton University.

He is an experienced Board Chair and Board member in learning related fields such as Association for Talent Development and Learning for International NGOs. A frequent contributor and speaker at industry conferences including Deloitte CLO Forum, Future Workplace Consortium, INSEAD CLO Forum, AST ICE conference and others.

He is a founding Director of Humentum.org, a membership organisation bringing transparency, skills and localization to the capacity building efforts of the International Aid Industry.

Chris was born in The United Kingdom and now lives mostly in Seattle in the USA. He loves to hike, read, sail, and travel with his educator wife, and two grown sons.

Subscribe to Where Ideas Launch

Episode Transcript

Katherine Ann Byam  0:01  

This is part one of a two-part episode. 

 Hi, Chris and welcome to Where Ideas Launch.

Chris Pirie  1:29  

Katherine, thanks so much. I'm honoured to be here.

Katherine Ann Byam  1:32  

Thank you for joining me. I'm really excited to have you on the show because you don't know this but your podcast has been a big part of my 2020 story. I attended a Learning Futures conference in London in the first week of February. I think it was just over a year ago. And I got hooked on many of the speakers and all of them spoke about your podcast which is quite remarkable. And once I started listening, I got hooked on it and it started to help me reshape the entire way I crafted my business. So once the pandemic happened, and I started to pivot to doing courses and programs, I started to focus on the future of work and some of the career work that I was doing. So you've had a big part of my story.

Chris Pirie  2:17  

Oh, wow. Well, I'm flattered. I'm excited. Where was the conference, at the ExCeL Center? 

Katherine Ann Byam  2:24  

Yes, it was. Before it was in the NHS Hub?

Chris Pirie  2:27  

Yeah, it was about a year ago. And I was thinking about this the other day, it was actually in February, I think of 2020. And it was one of the last trips that I made. And that building turned out one month later. It was like a “3000-bed” feel hospital. It was amazing. And with the energy of that conference, we didn't know what was waiting around the corner for us. I just remember this, it was the last time I was with 3000 people in one room. Now it feels like a very scary thing.

Katherine Ann Byam  2:59  

It's quite striking to think back. But it was only a year ago. So I wanted to talk a little bit about that podcast, because I find it really transformative. And I know that you have 30,000 downloads. It's called Learning as a New Working. And can you tell my listeners why you thought this statement could be true?

Chris Pirie  3:17  

Yeah, I think I can't remember exactly how I stumbled across that title. I wanted something that was fun. But what I like about it is I think it's a useful frame for two reasons. One is my work is really about how we can prepare the world for a future of work that's going to be very different, especially in the light of how we've prepared people for the world of work in the past has not been excellent. So let me put it that way. So how do we prepare people for the world of work? And I think Learning is the New Working does two things. One is it sort of tells the story of how modern work and how it looks like work is going in the future is going to be highly dependent on the ability to learn quickly and effectively.

That's always your best bet in a world of change, right? It's like this, the secret sauce of humanity is that we can be plastic, we can learn, we can respond, we can adapt, and we can be agile. And that's particularly useful in times of change. And a lot of what I'm reading tells me that we are at this time of incredible change. So that's one thing. Learning is one of the ways that you will be more effective in work increasingly in the future. The second thing is that as I studied this, it turns out that learning is really hard especially once you get past your middle twenties. You absolutely retain the ability to learn and brain plasticity is available to you through your entire life. I'm a big fan of lifelong learning but It gets hard, right?

It happens with no effort until you're in your mid 20s. And then it requires an extraordinary amount of effort to really learn new things, new models, new processes, new behaviours, and new facts and information. And so I like Learning is the New Working from those two angles, because it talks to the future of how we're going to get by at work. And it also talks to something that I feel very strongly about. And that is a new scientific approach that we need to help people get better at being learners.

Katherine Ann Byam  5:36  

Absolutely, I think that's such an important part of the story. I would say that for myself, I have pivoted careers at least every four to five years and radical pivots as well. So I probably don't necessarily agree that it gets harder but I do agree that it gets harder to sell it when you're pivoting and changing. And I wanted to ask you a little bit about sustainable development and the goals around that. There are two goals in particular that I feel I need to talk about in this podcast as it is sustainable leaning. One is goal eight, decent work and economic growth, and the other one is called for quality education. And my question for you is which one do you think we are likely to struggle to get to more? Will it be a challenge around decent work and economic growth? Or quality education?

Chris Pirie  6:29  

Well, the first thing is, I love this frame for your podcast. I mean, to be honest with you, I wasn't super familiar with the sustainable goals - the United Nations' set of goals. I definitely came across them but hadn't really studied them. And I love it. I mean, I think it's obviously a codification of the challenges we face as humanity. And that's very much in frame right now. And so I like it and I like that approach of your podcast. So congratulations on doing that. Couple of things I would say. One is that studying the international aid sector, this is not my area of expertise. But it's something that I've really enjoyed studying and learning from. And I'm going to frame it up. I'll come back to your question specifically, but I want to frame it up first. I think the work of international aid is fascinating. I mean, it's loaded with post colonial baggage.

But it's a $200 billion worth of activity around the world. And when you meet people who are engaged in that, they're usually super people that operate with purpose and integrity. And I love being around those people. And one of the things that I learned was, the whole business of international aid is essentially two things. One is funnelling money to where it's needed. And secondly, it's finding the capability and coping capacity to get the work done whatever it is - water projects, education projects, health projects, and so forth. So it's cash and it's training in its simplest form. And because it operates under such a lot of constraints. I really learned a lot about training and workplace learning by studying the sector. And I really did learn a lot.

And some key principles in my work come from that.  For example, one principle is to use what you have. In the private sector, where I come from, we spend staggering amounts of money. In fact, more money is spent in corporate workplace learning, (the best estimates $360 billion) that is spent in international aid. And so that's Workplace Learning investment to a very tiny fraction of the human population. And it's actually not really very good. That's the dirty little secret.

So anyway, point one is I studied the international aid space not as an expert but as somebody who wants to learn from great work that happens there around agility and impact and so on and so forth. The twin goals of education and work are really, really interesting. As I read them carefully, a lot of the education which I think is number four (is that correct?) It's a lot about childhood education. That's not my area of expertise at all. I really defer to that one. But it's clear, you know, if you read works like Hans Rosling's work, "Fact Fullness," which is one of my favourite books.

You know, he'll tell you the correlation between educating children and moving humanity and society forward is so blindingly obvious that we just need to get better at doing it. We need to spend more money doing it and we need to be equitable and how we give people childhood education opportunities. It's crystal clear. It's out of my expertise, my league now, but just whatever we can do to improve that seems to me absolutely a slam dunk.

Katherine Ann Byam

Added links to your earlier point as well about how easy it is at that age as well to assimilate.

Chris Pirie

Yeah, true. I mean that's absolutely true. And I think when you get uneducated youth in the world, bad things happen. They're easily exploited. They're put to bad ends. It's clearly not good. So educating kids, educating women, educating everybody should be a massive priority. End of story. As far as I'm concerned, what can we do to make that happen? There's a really interesting story that I love. One of my favourite episodes of the podcast. And it wasn't me doing the interviewing.

 It was a friend of mine called  Lutz Ziob, who does a lot of work in Africa. And he found this amazing guy called Rob Burnett, and Rob is a Scotsman. And he ended up in East Africa. He's built this incredible organisation. It is a model for so many things. I remember the episode. Yeah. I think a lot about the future of work and one of the things that I did when I first started this project was I went to learn how to think about the future because there are people who do that.

 And it's not crystal ball gazing. It's a discipline and a science. There's tools and techniques you can use and I wanted to understand them a little bit. And one great phrase that those people throw around a lot is, is actually a science fiction writer whose name is escaping me right now. He says "the future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed." And so you look for futures around. That's kind of a little bit about what I do in the podcast. I'm looking for possible futures, people who are doing things really, really well, people are on the cutting edge.

And Rob Burnett is one of those people but his future is quite dystopian because he tells a story of how things in 2019 in East Africa. 1.2 million people will graduate from the education system, to your point, goal number four. Job well done. 1.2 million people are educated so somewhere between the age of 16 and 18. These people are educated. They're skilled and they can read and so on and so forth. And they come out of the education system. And less than 5% of them get a job that you and I would recognise as a job. I go somewhere you go religiously every week and get a paycheck at the end of the week.

So these people go onto the streets and they find ways to operate. And I'm not going to tell his whole story. But he helps those people. He reaches out to those people. And he gives them skills that they need to do what they do more effectively. And he calls it the hustler MBA and he speaks in the language and cultural tropes that they understand. He's built this network of 5 million people. And he started by producing a comic, like using what he had, like the simplest technologies he could get his hands on. And he's gone on to build social media that really accelerated his practice.

 And it's a really amazing story. So I think that's a little bit of an illustration of if we get people through school, the job isn't done when they leave school. They're going to continue to need to learn. They're going to continue to get experiences. They're going to continue to need skills, many of which have an increasingly short shelf life. And yeah that's the kind of area of work where we hang out.

Katherine Ann Byam  14:03  

And it's interesting because I think we have had a number of overlapping challenges come upon us in 2020, in a way that we hadn't expected. So even as a workplace futures person, you would have been surprised at what we were able to do in 2020. And how things have changed, right? So we have this sort of perfect storm. It's and it's either actually going to be a storm or an acceleration, right? I'm not gonna say which but history tells us that depressions and recessions are followed by opportunity and by growth, but history never had AI. And I think there are a lot of things that this can challenge. So I probably have three parts to this question. So I'll ask you one at a time and that's good. One is how can we ensure that this strain on services, the climate change impact this whole Biodiversity bit, as well as the rapid advancements in AI do not become a permanent loss in jobs for humanity.

Chris Pirie  15:11  

Yeah. Wow, that's a huge question. And I do think that one possible future is what we think of as jobs today don't exist in the future. There are many people who think that there's Rob Burnett's world in East Africa where that's already true. You know, the idea of having one contractor with one employer who takes care of benefits and salary is really under threat. And it's under threat from a number of different directions and it's likely to evolve.

And we know this because as you say, you look at history as a guide, right? So when I think I always like to start, and I spent six months at the beginning of this journey, thinking about what are the forces at work? What are the macro forces at work? And this was of course before 2020. And the forces at work were really maybe sort of unarguable things that would likely change the way everything happens. One, of course, was climate change and what's going on with our environment. And that's really hard.

 I think for people to get their head around (because it's happening in) in such an abstract way for many many people - if you don't live in these extreme climate areas, you probably haven't noticed the change. But I can tell you, the oil industry has noticed the change. The people who live on these edges and in these futures, they noticed the change and you're seeing the behaviours happen. So that's one thing that I don't have a lot of expertise in. But clearly, it's going to drive a lot of shifts in population. 

You can map out what's likely to happen as a result of climate change to humanity. The second thing is technology. And I think he talks maybe in your introduction about the fourth industrial revolution. We know what happens when a radically new technology comes along. It changes how we organise our work. It also changes how we organise our society, and maybe even how we think about our gods. I mean it has fundamental changes and we know that over the last 300 years, there was this kind of steady drumbeat of changes really based on energy. Actually, at the heart of it, the energy we use to power the tools that we have, that we've invented in that kind of era. And so this is all well documented.

In 1860, people moved from the farm and into the workshop, and then into the factory. And then we started to automate things through computing in the 1960s. We had this sort of 100-year drumbeat. But there's nothing that says 100 years is the magic number. And in fact, here we are just like 30 or 40 years after the information age. And we've got this incredible new set of technologies that most commentators think is described as the fourth industrial revolution. It's the technology that's going to change our world.

So fundamentally, we'll have to reorganise around pretty much everything, especially work. And you mentioned AI. AI is clearly going to have a massive impact on the world of work. Machines are going to be better. We know these machines are better at doing things than we are. That's why we build them in the first place. And thinking of machines, as some people call these AI machines are going to be able to scour much more data than we can ever consume as humans.

They're going to be able to compute at a much faster rate. And already we can as humans. They're going to be able to organise themselves. And so this is a profound shift. And one of the things that really made me sit up and take notice of AI was when somebody said, "you can think about the impact that AI will have on the world, in the same way as the impact that electricity had on the world. So it's not something that's just going to apply to a few niche areas and jobs and vertical industries. It's going to change absolutely everything. And so that's kind of a lot to get your head around."

One of the reactions that we're seeing is this shift to thinking about humanity. Like if we can't calculate as fast as this machine, if we can't consume data as fast as this machine and we can't make connections and learn as a cohesive unit the machines can, what can we do? Where is our strength and where does our advantage lie? And this is what gives me a lot of hope, at the moment the answers to these questions all lie in our very humanity. And I think the interesting work that's going on today is kind of focused around that. And I can see it large even in the corporate world where I hang out.

And then let's just talk a little bit about 2020. When I started this project, my mission was to disrupt the industry that I just spent 30 working years working in because I felt that we weren't moving fast enough to help all the people that needed to be helped. And I felt that our practice was out of date 100 years old, moving people into training courses, and telling them what to do, and then sending them out and expecting them to do it. You know, this was the work of the early 1900s.

And we haven't really moved beyond. And so I had this notion that we needed a new learning science that helps people be really effective learners based on progress that we've made in a number of different scientists in scientific disciplines. And I wrote this little book,which was the kind of me getting my thoughts together around the whole project. And it was called a Learning Disruptors Handbook. It was going to be like an album by The Clash and it was gonna be a call to action and to tell people how they were wasting their time. And then along came more disruption than I could have possibly imagined in the form of the global pandemic.

And this has been the most disruptive action of my life and probably my generation, and probably this era. And all kinds of amazing things have happened. And we all sat here with our heads spinning, figuring out what if this is going to be permanent? And what's gonna happen afterwards? How do we build back better to use one phrase? Or, how do we get back to the new normal to use another phrase. So disruption, whereas my call to action was to disrupt yourself, my thinking has evolved. And my call to action is, rebuild yourself. Rebuild yourself thoughtfully and carefully with technology but with humanity at the core.

So I'll give you one really simple kind of frame around this that I've used for many years. For 20 years, I was an evangelist for the kind of technology that you and I are using today. This was my world. Of course you can use technology to teach people to be more effective in their workplace. That was my job. And we experimented with all kinds of things. And we evangelised elearning, and we evangelised digital learning, and we evangelised global cohort programmes. And we did some really interesting experiments. The next thing you know, the evangelism job is done because people have no choice. And the only way to operate now is through this kind of technology through digital interactions. And so the job becomes different.

The job now becomes not how do we force everyone to use this slightly annoying technology? But how do we make it more human? How do we make it better? How do we take away the tyranny of Zoom fatigue? And how do we find technologies that bring back serendipity and bring back more effective collaboration and bring back happenstance, and bring back the hug, so to speak? And we will (as we know this is what humans do) build better tools. But that's the new job. And we have the opportunity through this disruption to reset the agenda. Whether we'll take it or not remains to be the big question.

But I think all of us have the opportunity, especially now to think ( as this comes back, as the world opens up in the great work of science and vaccines saves us from the brink) what we want it to be like. Let's make this a deliberate, thoughtful choice. And let's write about some of the wrongs that may have happened in the past. Let's be deliberate. And so that makes this a really, really exciting time and I want to double down and do better work.

Katherine Ann Byam  24:52  

To touch on the point about technology. The technology is already there and developing even further for us to have a more intimate experience of this, right? So yeah, even with the screens or even the haptic suits or these types of things that are coming out. So I'm sure that this will improve with technology. But I guess one of my questions remains which is, are we accelerating at a pace that we can no longer continue in our current state? Chris answers this question in part two of this episode.

(Part 2)

Katherine Ann Byam  0:01  

This is Part 2 of a two-part episode. Please be sure to listen to Part 1 before getting into this one.

Are we accelerating at a pace that we can no longer continue in our current state, - so we can no longer continue with technology external to ourselves and, do we need to internalise technology in some form or fashion to continue to keep this pace? Or is there another shift?

Chris Pirie  1:55  

Hmm. Are you talking about the sort of and so on and so forth?

Yeah, the book "Sapiens" and "Homo Deus" are really scary future models there. The ideas are really powerful. So computers are an extension of ourselves that enable us to do extraordinary things. They enable you and either chat across continents and then share that with other people. I mean, it's extraordinary. And that is an extension of ourselves. And there's also a branch of this where we change our physicality through drugs and through technologies of one sort.

The book, "Homo Deus" really does a nice job of playing out what that might look like. I did some research. It turns out that one in four kids in North America is regularly using some sort of behaviour modification drug. I mean these are not recreational drugs - these ADD medicines, and so on, and so forth. Actually, we are starting to use pharmacology to be more effective, not just in sports, but in learning as well. And that's clearly going to be a force and an interesting one and one that I think is going to be hard and take some time for us to get our head around. I would say before we do that... before we change our physicality, there is a lot of work that we need to do. And there's a lot of great work going on around what I call sort of collectively learning science.

 And there's always been a good, well-documented 100-year history of people trying to understand how learning works and pedagogical models have come out of that work. But we seem to be at a point in history where a lot of progress is getting made on a couple of fronts. And I talked about four things - I've talked about computer science. So computers will help us learn and they will help us learn not by just delivering content to us, but by actually taking off some of the burdens of learning, right? So, for example, you used to have to memorise a lot of things to be good at anything. Well, you don't really need to do that anymore because computers can do that much, much better.

You can focus your learning time on more conceptual things. One example, so computer science is going to help us be better learners. And we should be all over that. The second area is neuroscience or brain science in general. And there's a lot of subcategories of that where people are really starting to understand in a lot more detail how the brain works, how cognition works, how plasticity brain works which is sort of magic kind of essential attribute that humans have that is extraordinary and allows us to be so adaptable.

People are really understanding that at the chemistry level, and in sort of behavioural terms as well. So then you've got sort of behavioural science and social sciences that are really understanding one very important piece of learning. Perhaps the most important piece of learning, which is motivation and how you get people's attention. Because it turns out that once you're an adult, if you want to learn something new when you want to unlock your brain plasticity, it's really hard work. And you need to be highly motivated to do it. I think we all know this from our own experience.

And some, a lot of adult educators are in the business of motivation. I had a great conversation with a guy from a language learning company in Germany. It's one of my favourite episodes. And he just talks about the 5 million people who are learning together on their platform and what that allows them to do is to watch the behaviour, like what time of day do successful learners study, and what their study patterns look like, did they do a little bit, and often do they go deep? So we now have these kinds of laboratories, whether it's in a MOOC context or in a language learning context where you have millions and millions of people doing learning behaviours that we can observe in different kinds of ways.

 I think this is going to unlock all kinds of techniques and tips and hints on how to be an effective learner. And then we've got this extraordinary work that's going on in terms of human motivation. This is related to what you mentioned in the sort of pre-read that you sent me a little bit about the inequities of wealth distribution, and what's going on with technology companies that are becoming so powerful in our world. We all use Facebook as everybody does as one example of that but there are many others. Really, what these companies are figuring out is how to get human attention.

 They are really, as we say, monetizing eyeballs, and monetizing clicks. And this is really all about the attention economy, right? Getting your attention on whatever they can monetize, is kind of huge, and it's happening in a very disciplined, thoughtful way. And it's using what we're learning about the brain and human motivation to make it work. And we need to co-opt that. We need to co-opt that approach to help people be more effective learners, and to get people thinking about the right kind of problems. So that's the amazing sort of macro forces at work in our world today. And then the last thing I'll say about this is the most recent piece of work that I've done, I've done in collaboration with some people at Red Thread Research.

And we've just finished a podcast season on the topic of Purpose. And purpose, it turns out, is attention. It's about human attention. And the people that we meet, and the people that I've met on my entire sort of journey through podcasting and research, the people who are successful and the people who are doing interesting things are the people who are purpose-driven. And I really tried to understand that. And I think it lies somewhere in the area of people with purpose and are highly-motivated. And people who are highly-motivated are really effective learners.

 They know that to get the job done, they're going to have to steal ideas, they're going to have to learn what they can, they're going to use what they have, they're going to be clear on what the problem is, and they just get to be very, very effective people in their domain and in their sphere. So I'm very hopeful that this work on purpose and the trend towards purpose-driven organisations, whether in the international aid sector or the private sector is going to be helpful. 

Katherine Ann Byam  9:05  

It sounds as if purpose is also akin to innovation in the work that you're doing. 

Chris Pirie  9:10  

Yeah. I think that's interesting. When I think about innovation, I think a lot about experimentation. And I love experimentation. It turns out that one observation from the companies that I've worked with in 2020 is that the ones that were very open to experimenting before the pandemic and the crisis were the ones that were able to adapt very, very quickly. Because I think experimentation is part of this mindset shift - this growth mindset idea that says being open to new ideas, being curious, being focused on solving the problem, rather than leveraging whatever is you have - seems to lead to sort of greater success and more agility. So yeah, I think experimentation and innovation go hand in hand. 

Katherine Ann Byam  10:04  

Yeah. My final question is if you can tell our listeners a little bit about Humentum and that organisation that you have founded. 

Chris Pirie  10:12  

Yeah. Well, just to be clear, I was on the founding board. I was the board member of one of the component pieces. We brought three organisations together to form Humentum. And there are wonderful people working at Humentum. The predecessor organisations that do all the work but I got inspired to be part of that. Humentum is a membership organisation. There's 300 organisations that work in the international aid space. So you can think about all the big charities and organisations that are doing international development and so it's hard. It's a sort of consortium model.

There are some things to do that are hard that we can't afford to invest in and so let's, let's collaborate, let's come together and solve these problems sort of collectively. And it's focused on the really common fundamental problems that all these organisations have - How do we get our people well trained? How do we build capacity in the places where we do our work? How do we operate with transparency and integrity in a very highly regulated financial environment? How do we advocate for sets of standards that will make our work more effective, and so on, and so forth. So I love that it's collaborative.

 I got involved because of the learning aspects of the work they do - training and educating people, building skills, standards, building capacity where it's needed in the global south. It struck me that some of my experience with technology and learning might help. But I love the work that these guys do. I love that they came together - three separate organisations put their egos aside and formed this “better together” organisation and they do great work. And if you have something to contribute - projects, dollars expertise, then go check out humentum.org and see their work and they're doing good stuff on they're really poised to have even more impact. 

Katherine Ann Byam  12:34  

Wonderful. So in closing, what would you like my listeners to follow about you? Is it the podcast which I would absolutely recommend?  Is there something else that you'd like them to download?

Chris Pirie  12:47  

Yeah, so So I would say go to www.learningisthenewworking.org. And you can listen to some of the amazing conversations that we've been able to have, and more importantly, you can suggest people that we should talk to - people who are doing interesting things around the future of work or learning at work or in the international aid space. We are really always interested in talking to people who've had some sort of breakthrough or doing interesting work. So please go check it out. And I hope you enjoy it. 

Katherine Ann Byam  13:22  

Thanks for joining me, Chris. It's been a pleasure. 

Chris Pirie  13:24  

Yeah, great. Thanks so much. Nice to talk to you.

Katherine Ann Byam  13:29  

Thanks for listening. This podcast was brought to you today by career sketching with Katherine Ann Byam and the space where ideas launch. Career sketching is a leadership development and coaching brand offering personalised career transition and transformation services. This space where ideas launch offers high performance, leadership, coaching and strategy facilitation to businesses and the food and health sectors. To find out more, contact Katherine Ann Byam on LinkedIn